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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: November 16, 2014, 7:42 pm 
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Joined: October 19, 2009, 9:36 pm
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Location: meadview arizona
i did say rev LIMIT not rev LIMITER as the engine went flat long before the LIMITER.

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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: November 16, 2014, 9:21 pm 
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Joined: September 3, 2012, 10:48 pm
Posts: 336
Location: Hamden CT.
the rev limit was explained by the rpms I gave and also how the car felt .
the rev limiter is adjustable and is set at the point the engine builder felt was best .

4-2-1 header falls off at 11,200
4-1 header falls off at 11,400
rev limit of the motor is 11,500
rev limiter set at 12,200
the reason for the limiter set at 12.200 is though the motor stops pulling I can run it into a turn with out having it pop off the limiter and slowing the speed of the car or needing to up shift .


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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: November 17, 2014, 1:18 pm 
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Joined: November 9, 2007, 3:40 pm
Posts: 4076
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
4-1 tends to be more peaky. The 4-2-1 is smoother. The 4-2-1 does a better job maximizing the area under the torque curve but it comes at the expense of making a big number over a small RPM range. The length of the primaries (and secondaries in the case of the 4-2-1) is probably more critical. You also have to look at your intake runners and the cam and make everything play nice.

Its going to depend on the application but I found a 4-1 exhaust on an FSAE car to be terrible to drive. It would probably have been better in an application where the engine was constantly at high revs but the lack of low-end combined with the sudden hit was much worse than a 4-2-1 autocrossing.

My Locost had a 4-2-1 header for this reason but I never had a chance to dyno it to see if it worked. The new owner finished what I started. According to the table the car didn't have a torque curve - it had a torque line; 85% of the torque was available at 2,200 rpm and 95%+ of the torque was available by 2,500 rpm. I'd gladly take that autocrossing any day of the week.

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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: November 17, 2014, 2:46 pm 
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Joined: September 3, 2012, 10:48 pm
Posts: 336
Location: Hamden CT.
auto-x and road course racing is not apples to applies .
there are many factors that do come into play right down to the length of the headers them self's .

you will find many motorcycle headers of the 4-1 design so I don't know why it would be undriveable ?
it does not have the same feel right off the bottom as the 4-2-1 did but from 1800 up I could feel no real difference .

but this is were road course racing is far different from auto-x .
auto cross you at times will be totally off throttle in a full lock turn road racing is not at all like that .
nothing right down to chassis setups are the same with auto-x you could lose a little top end for a little low end torque and HP .


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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: November 17, 2014, 3:57 pm 
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Always Moore!
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I'm not arguing about any of those points but what does working well on a road course have to do with the original question?

wyked wrote:
But if a 4-2-1 would give improved low end power I might consider the extra effort, especially since the new donor engine came with a nice two bros carbon fiber muffler.


4-2-1 will deliver a flatter, less peaky, and more drivable power band. That was the whole point of my post.

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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: November 18, 2014, 10:23 am 
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Joined: September 3, 2012, 10:48 pm
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Location: Hamden CT.
it has to do with what your building the car for .
so if you have say a FSAE CAR that only does auto-xing you would not want the same setup as you would for SAY a road racing car nor would you want it for a street car .

because most sport bikes come with a 4-1 header I'm thinking of how a FSAE car could be undrivable with such a header on it ? as my DSR and F1000 cars both run the same type 4-1 header the cars are far from unrivable .

at a auto -x your doing standing starts you would want the car to come out of the hole quickly
road course your doing a rolling start so your RPM'S off the bottom are not as important .

at a auto cross your turns are much tighter again your rolling but your RPM's will also drop more .
on a road course your not getting the same drop in your RPM's .

so if you take a FSAE car and try and run it on a road course you may fine that running a 4-1 header could work better then a 4-2-1 or two 2-1's .

then is the motor built or stock ?
is the stator a inner rotor or outer rotor ?
then cam's what profile are they ?
all things have to do with what exhaust will work best for the use of the car your building .


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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: November 19, 2014, 4:27 pm 
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Joined: August 28, 2010, 7:53 am
Posts: 343
i built a 4-1 system with long tubes for my BEC. I was going to do a 4-2-1, but i felt that with my fab skills ("good amateur"), a really nice 4-1 would be better than an OK 4-2-1. The lengths, angles, bends and transitions are harder to get just right with more pieces, especially in a moderately confined space.


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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: November 19, 2014, 5:31 pm 
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Joined: April 12, 2012, 11:56 am
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Location: Pemberton, BC
Sean,
how long did you make your primaries, and for what engine?
I'm just now making my header, and I also went with a 4 into 1, mainly because I made a slip-on collector. It could have been done with a 4-2-1, but it looked to be a bit better for packaging. Because I eliminated the EXUP valve (2005 R1) I went with the dimensions that I found for the aftermarket systems, Graves and Akropovic. Although they both are 4-2-1, I figured the I'd make the primaries just as long. So I went with the longest, the Graves, which is 31 inches (Akropovic is 26 inches). Purely experimental, like the rest of my build. :oops:
Here's a good little read on the subject.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... nology.htm

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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: November 19, 2014, 8:11 pm 
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Joined: August 28, 2010, 7:53 am
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Its a kawasaki zx11 in an Amod formula car (chain drive, header right behind driver). Don't have it in front of me, but IIRC the tubes range from 21-23". I am using a muffler, which offsets some of the benefits (or detriments) of the header design.


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 Post subject: Re: 4-2-1 vs 4-2 exhaust
PostPosted: December 20, 2014, 8:40 am 
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Joined: August 9, 2007, 2:07 pm
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Location: Downingtown, PA
This topic is still bouncing around in my head, and likely will until I actually start to work on the exhaust (coolant system is taking way too long to finish). Regardless, I was thinking about the idea of individual one-per-cylinder exhausts that john hennessy threw out there. I initially dropped the idea due to the fact that it would add more weight and cost due to needing to add/buy more mufflers. But then I had a thought, the slip in muffler baffles are pretty cheap and come in a variety of lengths/sound reduction levels. Individual exhausts would be pretty straight forward so I decided to look into it more and came across this question/answer article from Cycle World. I thought it had some good input on the one-per-cylinder/4-1/4-2-1 debate so I thought I would add it here.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/01/03/ask-kevin-are-reverse-cone-megaphone-exhaust-systems-making-a-comeback/

Quote:
Rob Muzzy once remarked to me that if power is the only goal, individual, one-per-cylinder megaphones can’t be beat. The universally used 4-into-2-into-1 systems on inline, flat-crank fours may make a bit less power, but they compensate for that loss by suppressing to a useful degree the big torque flat spot that occurs at about 70 percent of peak-power rpm. The return wave from the expansion of the exhaust pulse normally helps evacuate the volume above the piston at TDC after the exhaust stroke, and this low-pressure wave then passes through the intake valve(s) and gives the intake process a torque-boosting head start, even though the piston has not yet gathered much speed on its downstroke.

But at lower revs, it is a positive wave that hits the still-somewhat-open exhaust valves around TDC, and it stuffs exhaust gas back into the cylinder and can even blow back into the airbox through the intakes. This reduces torque because what the piston draws in during the early part of the intake stroke is this exhaust gas, not pure fresh charge. The result is a flat spot that tuners have tried for years to eliminate, but it won’t go away. This is why no race tuners use a simple 4-into-1 pipe any more.

The answer is to make a 4-2-1 exhaust. The second enlargement that occurs as the two pipes join into the single collector generates a later-arriving suction wave that bucks out the positive wave that would otherwise shove exhaust back into the cylinder to create the flat spot. It’s not a perfect solution, but it has been widely used.

In MotoGP, the bikes are given a 130 dB sound limit, but in AMA, the limit is only 105 dB. When you have to meet a sound level, it’s lighter in weight to do the whole job in just one or two places—hence the can or cans you deplore!

Back when Honda and MV Agusta were racing air-cooled four-stroke bikes, Grand Prix tracks emphasized top speed a lot more than they do now, with most races taking place on “bullring” tracks like Jerez or Valencia, which jam all their length into small (cheaper!) real estate that can be seen from grandstands, with a multitude of first- and second-gear corners. The lower an engine is pulled down in rpm by having to use lower gears (wider ratio separations), the wider must be its flat-spot-free power range. In the old days, megaphones did a fine job with MV’s seven-speed gearbox and the many more speeds in the gearboxes of Honda’s smaller-bore bikes of the ’60s. On today’s courses, those bikes would go faster with 4-2-1s.


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