LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently April 18, 2024, 7:59 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: October 28, 2015, 11:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: June 3, 2012, 10:44 pm
Posts: 36
Aside from weight savings, is there a cost savings in going with a bec? Is chain drive substantially cheaper than driveshaft drive? I'm just trying to weigh some options. Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: October 29, 2015, 2:27 am 
Offline

Joined: May 24, 2010, 6:10 am
Posts: 61
Location: Hawkes Bay, New Zealand
My BEC has been on the road now for 3yrs. I don't think that they are any cheaper to build but what ever I built had to have a bike engine in it. With the engine approximately 400mm form my ears with nothing to deaden the noise, I need to where ear plugs. My car weighs 470kg wet and I'm running 3:1 gearing. I can drive at 50km in top gear easily. Off the line even with first gear able to do 120kph, there is no need to slip the clutch or have mega revs.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: October 29, 2015, 7:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: May 2, 2009, 1:03 pm
Posts: 1389
Location: The Humid State of North Carolina
Because you can ?

I know... Not very helpful.

Really. I was torn. I will build a BEC as my second, but I wanted something "normal " as my starter project and I know nothing about bikes, so the decision was easy.

K "indecisive" S

_________________
Check out Firearm Finishes & Coating for options to ceramic coat your Locost parts. Hundreds of stock or custom colors including Chrome and Clear Coating options now available! High Temp options for hot bits!! Plastics too!!

Never become a pessimist. A pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.-Robert A. Heinlein


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: October 29, 2015, 8:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 12, 2012, 11:56 am
Posts: 662
Location: Pemberton, BC
I did it for the fun of it. The car is about as useful as my Pitts used to be, and I'm loving every moment. I'm now building a trailer, because I'll never drive it through the big city, but I wouldn't have it any other way. It is loud, the clutch is a bit touchy but very manageable and the reverse needs to be managed properly. But then if these things would concern me, I could have bought a Miata.
Mine isn't as light as paigeo's, but it is still very light at 600 kg (1,320 lbs). The biggest contributors are a heavy rear axle (to get the gearing right) and a full roll cage. Best of all, you'll be in a very eclectic group and you'll get a lot of appreciating comments and questions.

_________________
Martin


My build log:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14520&start=0
My build video:
https://vimeo.com/143524140 password "matovid"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: October 30, 2015, 11:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 10, 2010, 10:26 am
Posts: 2044
Location: Guadalupe, CA
"Reasons to go BEC"

They're different, and bottom line, BECs are simply automotive fun..

I really do think of mine as a bike with doors. It's been sorted and up and running for a few years, and still, after all this time, I let out a little giggle every time I fire it up- All of my other projects/cars have become pedestrian after some while of ownership, but the specialness of my little BEC just never seems wear off..

--A stupid analogy, but it works.. Remember when you were a little kid and you'd just run around because it was fun to run? At some point, running became a chore that our gym teacher tortured us with, and the joy was lost :ack:

It's a stretch, but the point is, my BEC is the joy in the act.. If I need to run an errand and I take the Hyundai, there's no joy.. If I take the BEC, it's like I'm in 2nd grade playing tag with my fiends- when we would run until we just couldn't run anymore..

Truth be told, I sometimes create errands and reasons to fire up my little bike/car hybrid and go driving; because it's fun :wink:


--ccrunner

_________________
Dean

1972 Honda N600 Restomod "ccrunner's N600 VFR800 repower"

1963 Volvo P1800 Restomod
http://locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=16309

1959 Berkeley SE492 Restomod...
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=19397

"ccrunner's 1960 MGA coupe Restomod" found on MGExp.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: October 30, 2015, 4:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: June 3, 2012, 10:44 pm
Posts: 36
ccrunner wrote:
"Reasons to go BEC"

They're different, and bottom line, BECs are simply automotive fun..

I really do think of mine as a bike with doors. It's been sorted and up and running for a few years, and still, after all this time, I let out a little giggle every time I fire it up- All of my other projects/cars have become pedestrian after some while of ownership, but the specialness of my little BEC just never seems wear off..

--A stupid analogy, but it works.. Remember when you were a little kid and you'd just run around because it was fun to run? At some point, running became a chore that our gym teacher tortured us with, and the joy was lost :ack:

It's a stretch, but the point is, my BEC is the joy in the act.. If I need to run an errand and I take the Hyundai, there's no joy.. If I take the BEC, it's like I'm in 2nd grade playing tag with my fiends- when we would run until we just couldn't run anymore..

Truth be told, I sometimes create errands and reasons to fire up my little bike/car hybrid and go driving; because it's fun :wink:


--ccrunner


Your oddball analogy strikes a chord with me and I instantly know the feeling you're talking about. Thanks for thecresponses and you've given me serious reasons to consider the bec.

EDIT:
Does anyone know if this guy is a member here

https://youtu.be/UpLqcXA9lCI


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: October 30, 2015, 7:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 12, 2012, 11:56 am
Posts: 662
Location: Pemberton, BC
I forgot two more points:
1. sequential transmission
2. you get to join a secret club
Attachment:
IMG_7795.jpg

:rofl:


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Martin


My build log:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14520&start=0
My build video:
https://vimeo.com/143524140 password "matovid"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: October 30, 2015, 10:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: June 8, 2010, 8:02 pm
Posts: 621
Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
I seriously considered BEC for my build. Reasons to want it: 10,000rpm, with several sequential gears to bang through. That's pretty cool, and sounds/feels like a real race-car right?

I opted for a car motor because they are more durable (more the trans/clutches than the motor), torque, I was able to get car stuff cheaper, torque, you don't need to worry/spend as much to keep things light, and I did I mention torque? :mrgreen: Torque is what makes driving fun to me. When I hit the gas, I want to go now. Not wait a few thousand RPM and then go. Mostly I wanted to be able to flog on my car hard, and not be wearing rings and breaking clutches all the time. I'm currently at roughly stock power levels, with a car that weighs half. Should be fairly reliable powertrain.

Cheers.

_________________
Build log: viewtopic.php?t=9291


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: November 4, 2015, 12:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 10, 2010, 10:26 am
Posts: 2044
Location: Guadalupe, CA
mgkluft wrote:
I forgot two more points:
1. sequential transmission
2. you get to join a secret club
Attachment:
IMG_7795.jpg

:rofl:



good catch, I almost forgot about the secret club!


--ccrunner


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Dean

1972 Honda N600 Restomod "ccrunner's N600 VFR800 repower"

1963 Volvo P1800 Restomod
http://locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=16309

1959 Berkeley SE492 Restomod...
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=19397

"ccrunner's 1960 MGA coupe Restomod" found on MGExp.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: November 4, 2015, 1:08 pm 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 6418
Location: SoCal
Based upon exactly one ride in a Caterham Hayabusa-powered Seven, I went with a car engine:

1. Bike drivetrains don't have a flywheel, and the consequences are noticable when driving at a constant speed. The car gets into an odd oscillation where drivetrain backlash causes a slight but noticable back-and-forth jerking. The car speeds up a tiny bit, causing the driver's foot to lift very slightly off the gas, causing the car to slow down, which causes the driver's foot to very lightly press more on the gas, and it repeats. If the driver barely accelerates or decelerates, the problem vanishes, so to avoid it, the driver has to always be speeding up or slowing down.

2. Gearing. 60 mph is about 6000 rpm - I kept looking for another gear.

3. Hair-trigger clutch. Even though the owner had the car for several years, he regularly stalled it.

4. No low end. Yes, it may have 180-200 hp, but it's all up at the high end and takes time to get there.

5. No reverse. Even though there are solutions, it gets annoying.

6. Unless the intake and exhaust perfectly copy the bike installation, power won't be as claimed.

For a trackday car, absolutely. For the street, not so much. Believers can claim that the above doesn't bother them, which is fair enough, but the issues do exist.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://midlana.com/stuff/book/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains
Both available from https://www.lulu.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: November 4, 2015, 2:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 10, 2010, 10:26 am
Posts: 2044
Location: Guadalupe, CA
KB58 wrote:
Based upon exactly one ride in a Caterham Hayabusa-powered Seven, I went with a car engine:

KB is right on these points, but as with most things, you can find get-arounds (or you must just learn to live with it)

1. Bike drivetrains don't have a flywheel, and the consequences are noticable when driving at a constant speed. The car gets into an odd oscillation where drivetrain backlash causes a slight but noticable back-and-forth jerking. The car speeds up a tiny bit, causing the driver's foot to lift very slightly off the gas, causing the car to slow down, which causes the driver's foot to very lightly press more on the gas, and it repeats. If the driver barely accelerates or decelerates, the problem vanishes, so to avoid it, the driver has to always be speeding up or slowing down.
This is a very real, and very annoying result of the bike transmission's straight cut gears.. I had to retrofit a giubo (rubber donut) into the driveline and the oscillation effect is virtually gone- a true night and day difference in the BEC driving experience.. Just my opinion, but all BECs would benefit from using a TRT or Giubo in the driveline

2. Gearing. 60 mph is about 6000 rpm - I kept looking for another gear.
This is 100% true and it is tiresome.. do not plan to drive your BEC cross-country.. despite the high rpms on the freeway, I still take mine out of town all the time (recently went 8 hours one way), and it was livable with noise-cancelling earbuds and music -hell, I drove it to work this morning :cheers:

3. Hair-trigger clutch. Even though the owner had the car for several years, he regularly stalled it.
Something's wrong with the pedal ratio (needs to be about 7/1, maybe more). If the owner is stalling it, it needs a rework.. Mine took some fiddling for setup, but it now acts no different than a 'normal car'.. easy-peasy to daily drive..

4. No low end. Yes, it may have 180-200 hp, but it's all up at the high end and takes time to get there.
In general this is true as most bike engines are peaky, but not all of them (mine only has 110HP).. BECs need to be wrung out a bit more than a 'regular' car (mine likes for me to shift above 8k, but don't mistake this for total lack of torque).. I can lug it around if I want to- pretty good grunt even down low-- part of it is my chosen engine, and part of it is the 1.9 bike tranny gear reduction --on paper I get to nearly double my bike's 55 ft lb rating as my 'geared torque' is closer to 100 ft lbs at the crank; FAR more than my car's OEM torque); but in general, you do in fact need the revs to get the 'big' power/torque

5. No reverse. Even though there are solutions, it gets annoying.
True is true :wink:

6. Unless the intake and exhaust perfectly copy the bike installation, power won't be as claimed.
Those engineers area a clever bunch.. as stated, be as true as possible to their design to get the power/torque

For a trackday car, absolutely. For the street, not so much. Believers can claim that the above doesn't bother them, which is fair enough, but the issues do exist.

Agreed- hard to beat a BEC for track day, and if you're willing to put up with the inherent differences that a BEC brings to the street, they can certainly be a lot of fun there too


--ccrunner

_________________
Dean

1972 Honda N600 Restomod "ccrunner's N600 VFR800 repower"

1963 Volvo P1800 Restomod
http://locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=16309

1959 Berkeley SE492 Restomod...
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=19397

"ccrunner's 1960 MGA coupe Restomod" found on MGExp.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: December 1, 2015, 1:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: August 12, 2012, 6:38 pm
Posts: 1937
Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
KB58 wrote:
Based upon exactly one ride in a Caterham Hayabusa-powered Seven,


yeah. a lot of the qualities you mention during your minimal driving experience in-type, were very likely characteristics of that particular car, as opposed to qualities than can be said to apply to all such configurations. If I may offer a alternate view...

In my own experience, based on 8500+ miles of street driving (80% of that commuting) in the B-3 (1980 Yamaha XS850 engine bored out to 896cc), I am of the opinion that yes, its an acquired taste, but in the right combination, not at all unrealistic or uncomfortable as a daily driver.

one main advantage I have, having made the choice I did was that I come from motorcycles, (40+ years of street riding again mostly commuting), and so knew rather what to expect.

1. The issue with a "hair trigger clutch" is simply a problem of pedal ratio. I re-purposed the XS850 hand lever (handlebar bracket, clutch cable and everything) to a firewall mounted foot lever, and the action is smooth and easy, plenty of travel with which to feel the engagement.

2. Motorcycles actually do have flywheel-type masses in there, but the usual motorcycle drivetrain also has drivetrain isolators (or cush drives, as its referred to in the MC world) to mitigate driveline lash/snatch (it can also help with surging at part throttle, but that's more an issue of jetting/carburetion). In my case, because the B-3 is a reverse trike, I used a motorcycle final drive that retained the cush drive internal to the rear wheel assembly. Some driveline snatch remains, due to the long-ish 2 piece driveshaft connecting the front engine to the final drive, but its not anything like truly annoying. I can notice it in the lower gears mostly. There is no part throttle surge, at all, because I've jetted it a bit fat thru the low-midrange - which also helps power off the line. On the next build, which will be another front-engine reverse trike - because of course I have to build another, with a bigger engine (which I already have) - I do plan to include a guibo in the driveshaft, to soften both the shifts, and that last bit of lash/snatch.

By the way, motorcycle drive trains have lash in them, not because of having straight-cut gears, but rather because they are constant-mesh dog-engagement style transmissions. The straight-cut gear pairs are always in mesh, and slide back and forth on the shafts, with large tabs (dogs) on the sides of the gears sliding into engagement with mating dogs on the adjacent gear pairs. There are large clearances between the dogs, and that is where the lash/snatch originates from.

3. 6000 rpm at 60 mph? that thing was geared way too short. (a trait that would also exacerbate part throttle surge and driveline snatch) the B-3 turns a motorcycle-like 4000 rpm at 70 mph about. unless all you've ridden are big V-twin bikes, if you come from motorcycles, you're used to seeing elevated revs on the highway.

4. no reverse. given enough street miles, one becomes adept at parking such that you don't need to push it very often, and even if you do, its a great conversation starter, part of the "thing", integral with the experience. commute buy motorcycle? you're pushing something, somewhere, every day. suck it up and quit crying ;-)...and, another motivator to Keep it Light.

Quite a lot depends on the engine selection, obviously. I'd offer the advice to go for the largest displacement you can get (though I didn't do that for the B-3, I just used the bike I had laying around) but as long as you configure the drivetrain to include those motorcycle-y features which mitigate KB's complaints about that particular caterham, a serviceable and fun daily driver can be had.

my biggest complaint about the B-3 right now is that its open and its cold out. gearing up for that cold morning commute takes an extra 20 minutes I don't want to spend...and if I don't run it at least every other day, it can be a bit cold blooded and reluctant to start when the temps are below 45F.

_________________
The B-3 build log: http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=13941 unfortunately, all the pictures were lost in the massive server crash

The beginnings of the Jag Special,
https://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=19012
Again, all pictures were lost.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: December 2, 2015, 7:07 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 8042
As a prior motorcycle mechanic, I've ridden a few hundred bikes of all types, and the real sport bikes with dedicated tuning were the toughest to try to ride like normally, not in the wrong gear, but just steady state. They were chugging and jerking and super sensitive to tiny changes in throttle that made it annoying unless you were always slightly accelerating or decelerating.

I think the semi sport and touring are much better choices for a car, especially Hondas.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: January 14, 2016, 9:42 am 
Offline

Joined: March 3, 2014, 11:39 am
Posts: 8
Location: åkersberga sweden
edit:


Last edited by michael ohrstrom on April 7, 2016, 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Reasons to go BEC
PostPosted: January 15, 2016, 12:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 12, 2012, 11:56 am
Posts: 662
Location: Pemberton, BC
Michael,
love your track day clips (I've seen some before). You sure get to travel to some very impressive tracks. I'm guessing you are in Sweden, so Imola or Cartagena aren't quite next door. :cheers:

_________________
Martin


My build log:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14520&start=0
My build video:
https://vimeo.com/143524140 password "matovid"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
POWERED_BY