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Okay, I've gathered by now that the Yamaha R1 engine doesn't require any sort of modifications to the sump of the engine to run in a car. I take it this has something to do with the oiling system being strong enough so as to not rely on the engine tipping to a side to get oil up into those areas. Are there any other bike engines that you guys know of that don't require much modification to the sump? And for that matter, I know some of the bike engines simply have a cooler for the engine oil and don't bother with water cooling. I know its not as effective as water cooling but simplicity is nice and I'm looking more on the cutting weight side of the equation rather than increasing horsepower. Any words of wisdom here, or suggestions of engines possibly? Thanks again for your help, guys.

Any m/c that uses air-oil cooling will be down on power compared to engines with water-based cooling systems. For instance, I have an air-oil cooled Honda CB750 rated at 65 hp. That's about half of what a modern water cooled 750cc engine will make. If you are okay with that, go for it! That's what I plan to eventually do with my CB 750.

So far as I know, the R1 is the only modern liter bike engine that BEC racers regularly do not dry sump. Even then, oil level is critical to engine survival. The standard technique is to warm up the engine and set the oil level at the top of the window while the engine is at fast idle.

Hope that helps...

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Stan
Dauntless Racing
You can have it fast, cheap and reliable -- choose any two!

I've never added up the weight differences to know for sure, but the newer water cooled engines are MUCH lighter than the older oil cooled variants plus I'm thinking you will see about a 25% hp increase for the same displacement.

I raced a "stock" 91 gsxr750 (oil cooled) that dyno'd out at 108 at the rear tire. move up to a water cooled 93 gsxr 750 and it will dyno out at 118hp.


there really isn't any savings running the oil cooled motor for simplicty either, as you will have to plumb in an oil cooler. I had to run two main oil coolers plus a head cooler to keep that 91 gsxr750 cool. what a mess of plumbing.

Ah, thanks for the input on the oil-cooling, guys. The only real engine that I'd heard of that put out any sort of impressive numbers with just oil/air cooling was the Buell V-twin (can't remember the number, but THE BIGGER ONE). I know air cooling will lower your horsepower quite a bit, I wasn't aware the disparity was that big. I'm not familiar with bikes, so I didn't know that aircooling had been more or less abandoned that long ago.

But back to the dry-sump thing, so the R1 is more or less it? Not even a V-Twin can get by car duty without it?

The 2-cyl liter bike motors are not considered competitive in BEC racing, so I for one don't know anything about them. They might work fine. Any engine that can assure an adequate supply of oil to the pump can work, but adequate oiling is the key. It might be sump design, baffling or whatever, but without oil any engine is toast in seconds.

Wanna see my '99 R1 with a hole in the case?

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Stan
Dauntless Racing
You can have it fast, cheap and reliable -- choose any two!

A hole in the case? Gotcha, sticking with the R1, hehehe. It would probably be easier to just mod the R1 for horsepower anyways. I'm not looking for much, 180hp is PLENTY, just something about getting to that 200 mark, hehe. Is there any extra things you can do to an R1 short of a dry-sump setup that would help its oiling system? Maybe a bigger pump or something? I've heard the multi-point YOU MUST DO THIS list to keep the R1 in good shape, and I know its better than the Hayabusa alternative, I'd just be willing to spend a little to try and get this thing as durable as I can. Just FYI, my car isn't going to be a racer very often, its mostly a street machine. Thanks again for the help guys

If your really worried you can make a trap door oil baffling system pretty easily if you can weld. Just drop out the oil pan and get to work. Most FSAE teams on tight budgets will do this to save some cash to get a running car.

Basically you can divide the oil pan into 3 sections (running front to rear) that flow into each other top hinged doors. When the bike sits flat the oil will be equal in all. The doors both open towards the middle of the pan. This way when your taking a hard right turn and all the oil wants to go to the left side of the motor it cant. The left door will close and all the oil from the right section will flow to the center where the oil pickup is. The same happens with hard lefts. So essentially the oil pickup always has a steady flow of oil regardless of the direction of the car because one door closes and one door opens.

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2007 R1 Powered Mid Engine Street & Track Car
Build Log: viewtopic.php?t=4970

i put a hole in my R6 case when the chain broke. Lucky i was able to weld it closed. My R1 engine will get a nice shield infront of the chain to protect the case just incase the chain wants to let go because the added traction and tension.

Now a hole from poor oiling... that sucks... but hey it allows you to upgrade to a newer more superior motor

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2007 R1 Powered Mid Engine Street & Track Car
Build Log: viewtopic.php?t=4970

Hmm, I really like the trap-door idea, Blue Devil, thanks. I can weld okay, but I have access to a welder regularly. If I'm feeling really down about how rusty my skills are I'll pay somebody at the shop to do it for me. Thanks for the idea!

if you can tack weld you will be fine. You dont need perfect welds or long ones. Just short easy ones to hold the metal in place. Make sure to do several doors for quick good flow. Many people even use a combo of doors and perforated aluminum just so the flow is fast the way you want it and slow the way you dont... this will help in quick left to right or right to left turns...

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2007 R1 Powered Mid Engine Street & Track Car
Build Log: viewtopic.php?t=4970

What material is the R1 pan?

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-Andrew
Build Log
Youtube

Aluminum

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2007 R1 Powered Mid Engine Street & Track Car
Build Log: viewtopic.php?t=4970

You may ask Jack how the V twin powered "Whippet" works.

I've always thought you could do some killer hot rod styling with a big, visible v-twin. Sort of like Jack's Whippet, but combine American Chopper with hot Rod, instead of Lotus styling.

There is a company that makes a 49-state emission legal 117ci, ~1.9L air cooled v-twin(American made too!). Dyno sheet for 100tq, 90hp on main page.
http://www.x-wedge.com/index.htm
Dyno sheet on the front page for 100tq, 90 hp.
http://www.x-wedge.com/audio/Xwedge_idle.wav
http://www.x-wedge.com/audio/Xwedge_throttle.wav
Emissions legal out of the box, and sounds awesome? I'm interested

When it sounds like that, and no worries about emissions, I can sacrifice a bit of speed.
Dyno sheet for 100tq, 90hp right on the front page., 117 Cu. Inches, ~1.9L. Air cooled.
I doubt I'm enough of a driver to use more power. Want it, sure. But drive the car to its potential either way? Probably not.

How much room do you have to grow with air cooled engines, horsepower wise, anyway? 20, 30% more power would make it plenty fun, I think. Maybe not track worthy, but fun.

In some ways, a build might be easier(super easy exhaust, no coolant plumbing, less bodywork up front). Properly styled, I think it would look amazing. Big honking v-twin right in front of your feet, minimalist frame up front, inboard suspension oriented horizontally. Maybe run a low, triangular, fuselage-like bodywork from the front, tapering out to highlight the engine. Might be able to snug the gas tank in there?

I don't know how you would tackle the transmission though. Maybe run a driveshaft, and throw a transverse transmission in the back? Any small ones out there, that wouldn't sap too much power? Maybe flip a VW bug transmission?

Not sure how high performance it would be, but again, I think it would probably still be more car than I am driver anyway. Plus a well styled hot rod with a huge, loping v-twin would please the girlfriend much more than a traditional-ish ugly seven, which would be a plus.

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JSullivan

Wow, thats quite the potent little V-Twin. I like the idea of a V-Twin powered cruising machine, although I do love the idea of the R1 engine better, this thread has kinda served to sell me on that.

I saw something earlier on the plausibility of other engines, some oil cooled, but now I see the advantages I thought they had aren't really there (simpler) and I'm looking more for horsepower than torque. I can build something else with torque, but you don't get revs like these anywhere outside of a Formula car, hehehe.