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Electric solenoid for shifting?
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Author:  L8 apexr [ April 13, 2010, 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Electric solenoid for shifting?

With space constaints for either cable or rod shifter set-ups I've been looking for ways to go with an electric push/pull solenoid(need to up and down shift).Looking at kits they are silly expensive,a grand is a common retail price,I figure an industrial source for a 1" stroke each way shouldn't cost much and I need to build all the brakets etc anyways so...
I haven't been able to find such a thing just yet,if anyone has tried this and/or has info I'd look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks

Author:  rust_bucket [ April 13, 2010, 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

Go to digikey.com. They will have what you want. I'd guess for a 1" stroke with a rating of a couple of pounds you'll be into it less than $40. -

Author:  blue devil [ April 14, 2010, 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

There are many reasons for the cost. How do you plan to find neutral with a simple push/pull cylinder and its half a pull between 1st and 2nd?

My suggestion... Push pull cable with a Dynojet Quickshifter. Do a quick google as well as youtube search and it might sway you. Its my plan for my R1.

Author:  egoman [ April 14, 2010, 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

My 4905 highway coach that you seee in some of my posts has solenoid shifting for the reverse selection, 24 volt though.

Author:  L8 apexr [ April 14, 2010, 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

blue devil wrote:
There are many reasons for the cost. How do you plan to find neutral with a simple push/pull cylinder and its half a pull between 1st and 2nd?

My suggestion... Push pull cable with a Dynojet Quickshifter. Do a quick google as well as youtube search and it might sway you. Its my plan for my R1.



Trust me I've looked at more shifter set-ups than I can count and was going to go the cable/quickshifter route.I started mapping out the route the other day more closely and due to the engine placement I need to do a single bellcrank if a push pull shifter is mounted,not that crazy about using my left hand plus the added weight to build a shifter mount high enough had me looking at paddles.If I go with paddles than I have to fab the paddles of course and 2 more bellcranks for a total of 3 changes of direction,concerned about any slop adding up to a crappy feeling shifter set-up.
During my searching(yes I do lots BEFORE asking here)it seems the duration of the push/pull action is in relation to the lenght of time the button is held,surprised me as I figured a push of the button would cycle the stroke regardless of how long the button was held.If thats the case it shouldn't take much practice to find the 1-2 shift into neutral,also considered an extension on the shifter that stuck up to manually move the shifter if needed.The only time I can see using neutral is when pushing it around and that isn't too often.

Author:  a.moore [ April 14, 2010, 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

Your build says its for auto-x and track use - will you even need first gear?

When we were using a pneumatic system for FSAE, we deleted first by placing a tack weld on the shift drum and making a spacer to replace one of the two gears. Instead of it being 1-N-2-3-4-5-6 it was N-2-3-4-5-6. You might be able to do something similar.

Author:  blue devil [ April 15, 2010, 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

a.moore wrote:
Your build says its for auto-x and track use - will you even need first gear?

When we were using a pneumatic system for FSAE, we deleted first by placing a tack weld on the shift drum and making a spacer to replace one of the two gears. Instead of it being 1-N-2-3-4-5-6 it was N-2-3-4-5-6. You might be able to do something similar.


Agreed on that. Even for accel we dont use first.

Trying not to be off topic but what team (years also) were you on?

Author:  nocones [ April 15, 2010, 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

a.moore wrote:
Your build says its for auto-x and track use - will you even need first gear?

When we were using a pneumatic system for FSAE, we deleted first by placing a tack weld on the shift drum and making a spacer to replace one of the two gears. Instead of it being 1-N-2-3-4-5-6 it was N-2-3-4-5-6. You might be able to do something similar.


You guys kept 4-5-6 in? We yanked everything out of the trans except I think it was 2-3 (it may have been 1-2 it's been a little while). We turned a new shift barrel, left only 1 gear set and 1 fork in, and made it go N-2-3. It was sweet. Saved almost 3 lbs. We seriously considered running custom shafts to try to save a little more weight but decided the extra .25lbs just wasn't worth it.

Author:  L8 apexr [ April 15, 2010, 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

I figure once its geared tall enough for longer straights 1st gear would be needed,the R1 1st gear is pretty tall.My FZ1 uses the same gearing and it did about 75 mph in 1st before I changed it.

Author:  L8 apexr [ April 15, 2010, 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

Digikey replied to my inquiry and they don't have a 2 way solenoid,just passing it along for the info.

Author:  olrowdy_01 [ April 15, 2010, 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

L8 apexr wrote:
With space constaints for either cable or rod shifter set-ups I've been looking for ways to go with an electric push/pull solenoid(need to up and down shift).Looking at kits they are silly expensive,a grand is a common retail price,I figure an industrial source for a 1" stroke each way shouldn't cost much and I need to build all the brakets etc anyways so...
I haven't been able to find such a thing just yet,if anyone has tried this and/or has info I'd look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks
Space constraints with a cable??? If you don't have room for a cable where are you going to put the solenoids?

Some people have tried (used?) two starter solenoids, one for up and the other for down. But neutral is the fun part. But if you remove 1st etc then there is no problem. The problem is the electronics to time and power the shifting while killing the engine for 10 mS or so at the right time.

Here's a picture of the lower end of my cable paddle shifter. The lever moves aprox 15° up and 15° down (the end of the cable moves ~3/4" up and ~3/4" down). The cable is shown connected to the end of an old motorcycle brake lever that I shortened to ~2" (hidden behind oil line). The bracket is the original one from the car I got the cable from.
More info is at my website.

Attachments:
File comment: Here's the lower end of my shifter.
shift-cable-low1.jpg
shift-cable-low1.jpg [ 28.01 KiB | Viewed 6056 times ]

Author:  L8 apexr [ April 15, 2010, 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

My engine is mounted beside the drivers seat,my left elbow is right over the transmission so I think the push pull cable will need to bend too sharply.I would need a bellcrank for the 90 degreee change in direction from the shifter to the shift arm,thats easily done.I only started to investigate the electric option as it would be less fabrication to build a bracket to mount the solenoid(mounted vertical on one of the engine mounts,lots of room)but its looking like it might not be worth the trouble with the short time frame I have.
I might just build a quick and dirty cable set-up to get it up and driving,revamp over the winter season next year.

Author:  olrowdy_01 [ April 15, 2010, 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

L8 apexr wrote:
My engine is mounted beside the drivers seat,my left elbow is right over the transmission so I think the push pull cable will need to bend too sharply.

I hope that engine never blows!

I would need a bellcrank for the 90 degreee change in direction from the shifter to the shift arm,thats easily done.I only started to investigate the electric option as it would be less fabrication to build a bracket to mount the solenoid(mounted vertical on one of the engine mounts,lots of room)but its looking like it might not be worth the trouble with the short time frame I have.
I might just build a quick and dirty cable set-up to get it up and driving,revamp over the winter season next year.
Maybe you've seen this but here's a MIT paper on their investigation into shifters.

dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/45820/319426919.pdf?...1

You'll have to copy and paste the URL to download the .pdf file.

Author:  a.moore [ April 16, 2010, 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

nocones wrote:
You guys kept 4-5-6 in?...


It depended on the year. My senior year we were down to a 3 speed (2-3-4). I think we figured at least a 2 or 3 lbs reduction just from all of the weight we "machined" from the F4i's massive gear set (by machine, I mean attack vigorously with a bench grinder then do the last little bit on the lathe to make it pretty and true). The only reason for keeping 4th was our testing facility allowed us to build fast courses. They also held full sized autocrosses and 3rd gear ended up being too low with our standard rear end ratio.

I was on Pitt's team for the 2005-2007 competitions. I'm going to start an FSAE alumni roll call thread in the automotive section...I know there are quite a few of us around.

To save this from being a totally off topic post, have you considered a pneumatic system l8 or will the rules not allow it?

Author:  erioshi [ April 16, 2010, 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric solenoid for shifting?

L8 apexr wrote:
I might just build a quick and dirty cable set-up to get it up and driving,revamp over the winter season next year.

I've seen a number of cases where BEC racers have pulled out linkage & bellcrank systems & replaced them with cables because the "carefully engineered" linkage set-ups proved to be far less reliable than a simple cable. Most of the drives who switched to a cable set-up also reported improved "feel" through the cable mechanism.

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