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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 8, 2011, 2:12 pm 
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You may want to check out/get a hold of member elewayne. He's up in Longmont and just got his car registered albeit not without some effort. I think this is the main thread. viewtopic.php?f=39&t=12176&start=30&hilit=texaslocost

(a 25 year CO former resident) :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 8, 2011, 4:16 pm 
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Acerguy wrote:
You may want to check out/get a hold of member elewayne. He's up in Longmont and just got his car registered albeit not without some effort. I think this is the main thread. viewtopic.php?f=39&t=12176&start=30&hilit=texaslocost

(a 25 year CO former resident) :wink:



Thanks, I pinned the State Trooper on the phone with the info from that build... the windshield doesnt have any size regulation per say. So maybe something small or one from a street bike with a headlight wiper from some volvo or saab. :D

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 8, 2011, 4:53 pm 
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For the steel arms i was going to use the same HAB-8T High missalignment spherical bearing

Questions
1) Any one know of a good cheaper alt.?
2) Where can i find a weldable mono cup that has a low profile to take advantage of the high missalignment?

Thanks,
mo

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 8, 2011, 6:22 pm 
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I would suggest machining a simple cup yourself, which can provide much larger weld area, something like what I did (still needs to be trimmed, and vertical plates need to be welded on for the pushrod)

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 8, 2011, 6:35 pm 
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Safety Glass is tempered glass. It breaks into tiny pieces and is difficult to cut.
Automotive side and rear windows are safety glass.

What the Officer is calling safety glass is actually laminated regular glass. Automotive windshields are laminated glass. The glass is two panes of standard stuff, sandwiched around a thin plastic layer when the glass is still hot. One reason that regular glass is laminated instead of safety glass is that a person can still see through a chipped regular glass windshield. Safetyglass would block a persons view because the whole thing would likely shatter yet remain in place.

Motorcycles typically have plexiglass windscreens, which are acrylic.

Aircraft usually have acrylic instead of polycarbonate, due in part to the effect oil droplets can have on a stressed lexan (polycarbonate) surface.

Federal and State Regs for motorcycles are not as stringent, but you have too many wheels to qualify.

Be sure to read the titling forum before building something that can't be titled where you live.
Also consider emission requirements where you live. You may get titled but not be able to register.

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 8, 2011, 9:24 pm 
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kikiturbo wrote:
I would suggest machining a simple cup yourself, which can provide much larger weld area, something like what I did (still needs to be trimmed, and vertical plates need to be welded on for the pushrod)

Image


Did you CNC the large plates??

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 8, 2011, 10:18 pm 
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this was cut from a 75 mm dia 4130 bar.. It was just turned on a lathe IIRC, or done on a simple mill, or both... In any case, it wasn't complicated..

I do not have the machines so this was outsorced..

The tubing will be cut and shaped so that the plate around the housing gets into the tube... The plate will be trimmed by hand, and everything welded togeather..

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 9, 2011, 12:24 pm 
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This picture makes me sad :cry:

Attachment:
12.jpg
12.jpg [ 55.76 KiB | Viewed 1619 times ]


Any whoooo...
Here is the new layout. Unfortunately i now need to account for a larger tube, holder, a com-8t, high misalignment bushings and modifying the uprights to accommodate the larger stack up. I really cannot find a way to use a smaller tubing to match a lower profile housing to fit the HAB-8T or the COM-8T-45 unless i neck down the end of the tube. I don’t like that.

Attachment:
New Control arm.jpg
New Control arm.jpg [ 108.9 KiB | Viewed 1619 times ]


Attachment:
New Control arm section.jpg
New Control arm section.jpg [ 47.62 KiB | Viewed 1619 times ]



Still looking into the PE signoff on the carbon tubes law.

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 9, 2011, 4:31 pm 
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Why put a gusset in your control arm? Also weld the outer cup on at proper angles for your castor and KPI.

Race cars suffer tremendous shock loads and noticeable impact damage to their arms, street cars too. They hit pot holes and curbing over 100 MPH, every lap some places. Curbing is not like street curbing but rounded, lumpy shoulder shapes. Last time out my co-driver put a 3" dent in one of my radius rods during practice. We re-adjusted the rear toe and finished the times runs later that day with the dent.

CF arms? You could kill yourself and much, much worse you could kill someone else. You are not being responsible. This is real world stuff you need real world priorities.

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 9, 2011, 4:35 pm 
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horizenjob wrote:
Why put a gusset in your control arm? Also weld the outer cup on at proper angles for your castor and KPI.


There is a gusset there for the push rod to connect to. I dont know what you are refering to in the second part as far as welding them at the right angles for caster and kpi

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 9, 2011, 6:02 pm 
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horizenjob wrote:
CF arms? You could kill yourself and much, much worse you could kill someone else. You are not being responsible. This is real world stuff you need real world priorities.


I am not sure that is a fair statement. My day job is designing parts for aerospace, crash test dummies and weapon systems that see extreme loads of 150g into the blastics range of 20,000g. I would always trust anything i did over someone else's design. I see a lot of people using off the self control arms with no testing by them or the the manufacturer. I am not saying that is wrong since "it has worked in the past" but their cars are not our cars and our cars have much different designs sometimes, resulting in different loading requirements. Yes there will be things like seats, etc that will have to trust my life too, but if i can test and prove it to my self i will.

Probably a moot point since even if a PE signed off on the design, there is still chance it wont be allowed on the street if someone during inspection doesn't like it.

Like little Wayne Says: "I don't go around fire expecting not to sweat" :mrgreen:

Its Friday! I need a tasty beer. :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 9, 2011, 6:54 pm 
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mjalaly wrote:
horizenjob wrote:
Why put a gusset in your control arm? Also weld the outer cup on at proper angles for your castor and KPI.


There is a gusset there for the push rod to connect to. I dont know what you are refering to in the second part as far as welding them at the right angles for caster and kpi


horizenjob is talking about rotating the outer bearing holder so that it follows the chosen castor and or king pin angle.. That way you use maximum of the spherical joint movement range, as at normal ride height your spherical joint (talking about the top and bottom upright joint..) will be more or less centered..

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 10, 2011, 4:09 am 
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Quote:
There is a gusset there for the push rod to connect to.


Ok fine, I couldn't tell. I didn't see that in your CF pictures so I don't really know what your planning.

Quote:
My day job is designing parts for aerospace, crash test dummies and weapon systems that see extreme loads of 150g


I can tell. I guess what I'm trying to say is not that you can't do that math or do good design work, but that you may or may not have real world experience at what you are doing in this case. On top of that I'm saying there is reason to err on the side of cautiousness, because the risks you take also involve other people. Perhaps you are less versed in the math involved in saving one pound of structure vs. a 1 in one million chance of killing another person.

I have no doubt that lightness is an advantage in a race car. How much is that one pound going to buy you at the track? How close are you to the track record for your class? At some point designing for the abstract is not a good goal. If you are stronger and more durable, that's a great thing. More power to you. If something happens that you didn't forsee, that's not so great. When things go bad someone, who probably doesn't get paid a lot, is going to have to go out and gather up your blood and guts and put them in a pail.

It's not that I don't admire the search for the "best", it's just that I think it needs to have very careful criteria. It is almost certain that the driver is the biggest performance factor. A few pounds of suspension simply won't matter if your not running against identical cars. I am not advocating a heavy car. You should be able to get under a 1000 pounds if you work at it.

If you drive this seriously you will likely drive off road over a 100 MPH more then once. i did anyway. Maybe it's different out west but here in the east it's wet enough that there are real ruts, rocks and other things ( I went airborn on a woodchuck once :shock: ). Just saying...

My last thought is nothing keeps you from going for the CF at a later date. Why not make the path to actually having a car simple and reliable and then with experience decide where to best put your efforts? That seems like a very real world approach. Since you don't know where the problems lie ahead, pick your battles by taking them on when you can pick and choose them. That is a resilient development strategy.

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 10, 2011, 5:47 am 
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horizenjob wrote:
Quote:
There is a gusset there for the push rod to connect to.


Ok fine, I couldn't tell. I didn't see that in your CF pictures so I don't really know what your planning.

Quote:
My day job is designing parts for aerospace, crash test dummies and weapon systems that see extreme loads of 150g


I can tell. I guess what I'm trying to say is not that you can't do that math or do good design work, but that you may or may not have real world experience at what you are doing in this case. On top of that I'm saying there is reason to err on the side of cautiousness, because the risks you take also involve other people. Perhaps you are less versed in the math involved in saving one pound of structure vs. a 1 in one million chance of killing another person.

I have no doubt that lightness is an advantage in a race car. How much is that one pound going to buy you at the track? How close are you to the track record for your class? At some point designing for the abstract is not a good goal. If you are stronger and more durable, that's a great thing. More power to you. If something happens that you didn't forsee, that's not so great. When things go bad someone, who probably doesn't get paid a lot, is going to have to go out and gather up your blood and guts and put them in a pail.

It's not that I don't admire the search for the "best", it's just that I think it needs to have very careful criteria. It is almost certain that the driver is the biggest performance factor. A few pounds of suspension simply won't matter if your not running against identical cars. I am not advocating a heavy car. You should be able to get under a 1000 pounds if you work at it.

If you drive this seriously you will likely drive off road over a 100 MPH more then once. i did anyway. Maybe it's different out west but here in the east it's wet enough that there are real ruts, rocks and other things ( I went airborn on a woodchuck once :shock: ). Just saying...

My last thought is nothing keeps you from going for the CF at a later date. Why not make the path to actually having a car simple and reliable and then with experience decide where to best put your efforts? That seems like a very real world approach. Since you don't know where the problems lie ahead, pick your battles by taking them on when you can pick and choose them. That is a resilient development strategy.


The last posted pics are the new 1020/4130 control arms. I have abandoned the carbon for now but i am still going to finish the testing since i have already scheduled the lab time.

Everything you stated above is completely reasonable and I am sold on your argument. Hopefully if all goes well i can start making the jig for the steel control arms this week along with starting to tack the front suspension box. Hopefully my wife bought me a sweet tube notcher for Xmas.

Also i talked with my carbon guys and building a tub shouldn't be too difficult as long as i have a strong mould and a little guidance. He showed me some of the really large carbon parts in the fab area today. You guys are down for that right?? I will post some pics of those large carbon pieces and mould once he shoots them over. You would be shocked to see how much reinforcement the mould needs

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 11, 2011, 7:16 pm 
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I guess i need to post my build table. I got it from a cabinet carpenter for $75. Had electrical already installed.

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