LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently July 19, 2018, 10:41 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 9:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 11, 2011, 12:38 pm
Posts: 242
Location: Akron, NY
Spend some time at vintage races and you will see many well prepared 914-6's blowing the doors off of equally well prepared 911s of the same vintage and class. You can watch the 914s out corner the 911s and decide for yourself why that is.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 10:13 am 
Online

Joined: June 5, 2016, 7:03 am
Posts: 198
Location: ontario
WelderLee wrote:
Spend some time at vintage races and you will see many well prepared 914-6's blowing the doors off of equally well prepared 911s of the same vintage and class. You can watch the 914s out corner the 911s and decide for yourself why that is.



Thank you for your advice.
My guess is that on a subject like this (and many others) personal opinions can be argued until the cows come home.
I was aware of of all these red buttons down here when I wrote my thread.
I have been on this list for more than 10 years and I would say that to be able to argue even the most obscure technical details is.... very much part of the... FUN. :cheers:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 10:27 am 
Online

Joined: September 22, 2005, 10:29 am
Posts: 408
phil wrote:
WelderLee wrote:
Spend some time at vintage races and you will see many well prepared 914-6's blowing the doors off of equally well prepared 911s of the same vintage and class. You can watch the 914s out corner the 911s and decide for yourself why that is.



Thank you for your advice.
My guess is that on a subject like this (and many others) personal opinions can be argued until the cows come home.
I was aware of of all these red buttons down here when I wrote my thread.
I have been on this list for more than 10 years and I would say that to be able to argue even the most obscure technical details is.... very much part of the... FUN. :cheers:


Thank you. I was getting a bit over-serious about the topic. You'd think we were talking politics or something (No! please no!) :cheers:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 11:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2008, 6:06 pm
Posts: 2952
Location: Under the weather. (Seattle)
carguy123 wrote:
And front mid is not marketing speak.

Mid simply means the engine is placed within the wheelbase not outside of it. Front or rear mid is only a convenient way to differentiate engine placement. Both are mid.
It is marketing speak. You know how I know? Because when Nissan popularized the term by going to great lengths to use it as part of the marketing campaign on their "FM" (Front Mid) platform with the release of the 350Z, they apparently got to define it however the hell they wanted. Thus they biased their definition of it purely for their own benefit, rather than using the logical engineering definition. In the years since, the masses have bought into this blatant marketeering ploy hook, line, and sinker.

Their marketeers claimed that front-mid means that the entirety of the engine sits behind the front axle center line. This is necessarily incorrect if there is to be any consistency of definitions. It was however convenient in that it fits with their layout while excluding as many other competitors cars as possible. The correct definition would be based on the location of the center of mass of the engine relative to the front axle center line. That's how the much longer established (rear) mid vs rear layouts have always been differentiated. Otherwise, any transverse (rear) mid layout with a V engine would become a "rear engine" car if one of the valve covers so much as grazed the rear axle centerline threshold. Which would obviously be completely ridiculous.

I'll buy into "front-mid" being a legitimate descriptor as soon as the rest of the automotive world buys into using the logical engineering definition for it...Until then, it's is literally nothing more than an unfortunately defined marketing term that sadly took on a life of its own.


Attachments:
Dilbert.jpg
Dilbert.jpg [ 100.23 KiB | Viewed 926 times ]

_________________
-Justin

Also follow my build on blogspot, tumblr, or instagram and twitter (GarageOdyssey)
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 12:47 pm 
Offline
Toyotaphobe
User avatar

Joined: April 5, 2008, 2:25 am
Posts: 4667
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
It was in use a LONG time before the 350Z

_________________
mobilito ergo sum
I drive therefore I am

I can explain it to you,
but I can't understand it for you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 12:49 pm 
Online

Joined: September 22, 2005, 10:29 am
Posts: 408
carguy123 wrote:
It was in use a LONG time before the 350Z


Perhaps by some, but not in the common vernacular.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 6:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: July 4, 2006, 5:40 pm
Posts: 1918
Location: Novato, CA
I like rear engine cars, too. I like the way you can hang the back end out so easily. Tons of fun. Of course I'm lucky to be alive today.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 10:16 pm 
Offline
Toyotaphobe
User avatar

Joined: April 5, 2008, 2:25 am
Posts: 4667
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
kreb wrote:
carguy123 wrote:
It was in use a LONG time before the 350Z


Perhaps by some, but not in the common vernacular.



Let's see, Mazda used it on their RX7s for decades prior to this

_________________
mobilito ergo sum
I drive therefore I am

I can explain it to you,
but I can't understand it for you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: September 30, 2017, 12:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2008, 6:06 pm
Posts: 2952
Location: Under the weather. (Seattle)
Ok, so replace Nissan with Mazda, and 350Z with RX7 in what I said above, and my statements still stand. Regardless of whose marketeers came up with this :BS: definition, doesn't change the fact that it's improperly defined for purely for marketing purposes...Either that or, unbeknownst to the entire automotive world, the Lamborghini Miura, Ferrari 308/328, Pontiac Fiero, Noble M12/M400, and Lotus Evora (among others) are all actually rear-engined cars. :roll:

_________________
-Justin

Also follow my build on blogspot, tumblr, or instagram and twitter (GarageOdyssey)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 9:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: January 28, 2016, 7:59 pm
Posts: 99
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
It's not improperly defined. The situation is different in the front of the car.

In the rear of the car, the engine is bolted to a transaxle that is either behind or in front. On top wouldn't be practical, and it simply doesn't happen. Cars are clearly either rear or rear-mid. So the engine weight is either in front of the axle or behind it. Simple.

If you used the same definition for the front as is used for the rear, you'd have chaos. Lots of rwd cars have the engine placed pretty squarely over the front axle; some of them would fall into one category and some into the other with no discernible difference in balance. Should you be able to change from front to front-mid by going to a lighter alternator and a heavier flywheel?

On the other hand, some front-engined cars have the engine set back substantially (compromising other things) in order to achieve balance. That's what a front-mid engined car is. The current, popular definition is very good because it divides actual production cars pretty cleanly into distinct categories.

_________________
Aedifico ergo sum.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 9:58 pm 
Online

Joined: September 22, 2005, 10:29 am
Posts: 408
It's a poor descriptor because front, mid and rear are fundamentally different configurations, whereas Front-mid could be a front that gets pushed a single inch to the rear, if that inch puts it into the other category. That's not a fundamentally different configuration, that's a motor that got pushed an inch. So its not like its a lie or something, it's just weak. If the engine configurations were planets, front-mid would be Pluto,


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 10:04 pm 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 5873
Location: SoCal
I much rather hear a discussion about how many pixies can be put on the head of a pin. In that case, at least the outcome matters.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 10:07 pm 
Online

Joined: September 22, 2005, 10:29 am
Posts: 408
More importantly, how many pixies does it take to equal one trunk monkey?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 10:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: January 28, 2016, 7:59 pm
Posts: 99
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
That's why it's important that it's a substantial engine setback. It makes a huge difference, like a 10 percent change in weight distribution (50/50 vs. 60/40) Not only does the engine get moved back, so does the transmission. Other things have to be compromised in order to move the engine back that far. It is a significant packaging problem, and it pays off with dramatically improved balance. It changes the balance of the car as much as going from rear engine to rear-mid.

_________________
Aedifico ergo sum.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 11:42 pm 
Offline
The voice of reason
User avatar

Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
Posts: 7546
Location: Massachusetts
So Phil, if your interested I think you can make a neat rear engine locost with 4 wheel drive from Subaru parts. I had some drawings at one point. Oddly one issue is that unless you stretch something the wheelbase comes out really short. Which at least means you have design room to play around with. Maybe a fuel cell behind the passengers.

One thing is the rear engine makes shift linkage easier.

With a good bit of seat time in a traditional longitudinal mid-engine I like the handling and don't see a real advantage to going rear engine unless you want the 4 wheel drive you could get with Subaru. For average street cars they are not supper practical, but for our purposes I think they work just fine.

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
POWERED_BY