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PostPosted: November 4, 2009, 8:30 am 
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hudson wrote:
Looking at making a 2-2.4L Flat Plane Air Cooled V8 using stock NSU cylinders, pistons, heads, camshafts.. I don't know yet if I could manage to modify a stock crank, but the only difference between the right crank and the stock crank is less counter balance and room for 2 rods at each location.

Reply: There would be zero counterbalance. The bearing surface for each rod would be reduced by half. Custom made rod bearings will also be required. Custom made consumables are to be avoided.


Now I'd like to run it north south.. so I don't know if I can make the original transaxle work.. but, because the NSU motor is counterclockwise/anticlockwise/wrong turn I can take any normal transaxle for a mid mounted engine.. and mount it underneath the block and drive it with 2 gears, so the transaxle will turn the right way.

Reply: This will raise the cg due to the engine being just under the decklid. The bevel drive to mate the longitudinal engine to the transaxle will add parasitic loss and heat.

It will sound really cool, have torque, will rev high, look cool, the weight distribution certainly won't be worse (or much?).

Reply: CG will be raised and increase the polar moment of inertia.

And if I can get the required machinging done for a reasonable cost, I bet it won't cost more than building a high strung NSU 4 banger.

Reply: It isn't a question of can you but what are you willing to pay? It sounds like $5,000 to $10,000 just for the engine if you cannot cast or machine the parts yourself. It can be done and it isn't rocket science but it isn't very practical or locost.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
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360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: November 4, 2009, 1:13 pm 
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First, I'd like to say that I really value thoughtful replies that aren't just "so cool" or "so stupid"

Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Reply: There would be zero counterbalance. The bearing surface for each rod would be reduced by half. Custom made rod bearings will also be required. Custom made consumables are to be avoided.


I've heard that it's nicer on the crankshaft and bearings if there is some counterweight to act against the rotational masses hanging off the crank.

The H1 Hayabusa V8 uses counterweights in their various flat plane crank shafts

http://www.h1v8.com/i/engine%20gallery/crank.JPG

There is a fairly good chance that the CC spacing for the Busa flat plane V8 crank and the NSU engine might be close enough.. I will have to look into that and if they use custom or stock rod bearing widths.

Quote:
Reply: This will raise the cg due to the engine being just under the decklid. The bevel drive to mate the longitudinal engine to the transaxle will add parasitic loss and heat.


When I think bevel drive I think changing the angle of the axis of rotated power. What I was trying to describe was keeping the axis of rotation but with 2 gears changing the direction, so that if the flywheel of the engine is pointed at the front of the car, a transaxle from a mid engined car could be used underneath the bottom of the engine and be turning the right direction (this is essentially the stock NSU setup..)

Quote:
Reply: CG will be raised and increase the polar moment of inertia.


Can't argue that, by how much and how significant is the question.

Quote:
It isn't a question of can you but what are you willing to pay? It sounds like $5,000 to $10,000 just for the engine if you cannot cast or machine the parts yourself. It can be done and it isn't rocket science but it isn't very practical or locost.


I know someone who runs a machine shop.. I'm trying to get them interested ;)


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PostPosted: November 4, 2009, 1:44 pm 
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I thought you were talking about two L-4 engines horizontally apposed versus a 90 degree arrangement with a flat crank. What benefit is there to running a flat crank besides sound?

A master/slave rod system could be used in the standard crank and bearing.

You mentioned longitudinal crank with any normal (i.e. transverse input shaft) transaxle, which means a change to the angle. I'm not sure what you mean by the flywheel pointing at the front of the car.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: November 5, 2009, 8:49 pm 
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Joined: October 13, 2009, 8:07 pm
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
I thought you were talking about two L-4 engines horizontally apposed versus a 90 degree arrangement with a flat crank. What benefit is there to running a flat crank besides sound?

A master/slave rod system could be used in the standard crank and bearing.

You mentioned longitudinal crank with any normal (i.e. transverse input shaft) transaxle, which means a change to the angle. I'm not sure what you mean by the flywheel pointing at the front of the car.


I've always been thinking flat crank with 90deg banks since I started thinking V8. Sorry for the misscommunication.

master slave rod system could work.. so could knife and fork.. but that's pretty complicated.

Regardless of what I put in.. I think I've figured out how to do it cheapest and with the best weight distribution, cg and possible 4wd in the future.

Use something like a Skyline or a Ford Sierra Cosworth 4x4 tranny.. point the tranny at the front of the car and put the whole assembly as far towards the front as possible then block off the driveshaft out put that's going to the front and then run a diff to the back which would have been the one going to the front wheels..

As long as that setup can handle 250 ish ponies.. Which I imagine largely depends on what I use as a differential and how it's all mounted.. It should work, and I've seen skyline trannies on the cheap..

I would probably have to weld something in the transmission to make sure it gets 100% power to the what was the front differential take off.

Does that sound sound in theory? :)


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PostPosted: November 6, 2009, 9:10 am 
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You don't seem to know what you want. What happened to 100hp and keeping the back seat? Your talking about a full tube frame with a shell that looks like a NSU. Why start with a NSU? Buy an awd and replace the body.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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