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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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 Post subject: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 9, 2019, 4:45 pm 
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Joined: October 12, 2018, 2:28 am
Posts: 7
Location: Snohomish, WA
Is there a set of plans for a book frame that includes mount locations for a Miata differential/wishbone configuration, or a Miata rear subframe installation? If so, where can I get them?


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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 9, 2019, 11:05 pm 
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Joined: January 31, 2012, 12:49 pm
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Location: Louisville KY
Not the Champion book.

But there is a wealth of info on the later "Build Your Own Sports Car: On a Budget" by Chris Gibbs (ISBN 1-84425-391-0, out of print) book using Miata bits. "Voodoo" is what you're looking for there.

The Haynes is a +221, meaning 2" wider, 2" longer and 1" taller (or something like that). It basically incorporated all of the fixes / mods for the Champion book. It also has provisions for IRS.

If you're nice to us (or at least tolerate us) we can get you some plans and a pdf copy of that Haynes book. Betting someone here has all of the Voodoo plans too. But once you get started, you'll see that the plans become less and less important as you go along (grins).

The Brits have a Haynes ecosystem, including at least one Facebook page that I know of. And of course, you have us here.

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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 10, 2019, 12:29 am 
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Joined: July 4, 2006, 5:40 pm
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Location: Novato, CA
For a book Miata build, you might take a look at Keith Tanner's website, cheapsportscar.net. There are no plans, as he built the car from a commercially-supplied frame, but there are a lot of pictures.

If you want a book-sized build, you might be able to adapt the Haynes IRS to a standard frame. The extra two inches of width would be your only real issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 10, 2019, 9:26 am 
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Joined: October 19, 2012, 9:25 pm
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Location: Summerville, SC
Book frames are really small. My R1 powered car was a book frame and I can't imagine trying to shoehorn in Miata bits.
The e Mod Sr20DET car was a 442 frame and used a full Miata rear subframe with a RX8 center section.

Several pics of the frame and subframe setup in my log

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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 10, 2019, 9:51 am 
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Joined: July 17, 2008, 9:11 am
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I think Grahams's (AKA FastG) car started life as a Miata powered book frame. It is now Honda powered. I'm not sure about the rest of the drive train or his front end donor. Maybe he'll stop by and comment. As I recall, his car had a 2nd 1" sq tube attached all around the top rail to get the bonnet clearance. OHC engines are taller than the pushrod engines that Mr Champion designed the car around.

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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 11, 2019, 2:03 am 
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Location: Snohomish, WA
Thank you all for your thoughtful and generous replies to my questions. I appreciate the offer of a copy of the Gibbs book but I just ordered it a few days ago. So far I've read the Champion and Tanner books. I remember when the Ford GT40 featured "computer-aided design" suspension and at the time it seemed so Space Age. I believe it was mostly to do with computations with no graphics involved. I was blown away when I went to the Vsusp site.

Regarding cockpit comfort, I am 6"1 and 190lbs. and rode in a Lotus Seven with 2-liter engine in England a long time ago. Uh-oh, I just remembered that back then I was no where near 190. I vaguely remember been cramped, but mostly remember the high speed through the roundabouts. It was like being on a tether. I suppose a larger frame is in order, especially with an OHC engine. Come to think of it, I don't know how a book frame compares dimensionally to a Lotus Seven frame.


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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 12, 2019, 3:06 am 
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Joined: July 4, 2006, 5:40 pm
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Location: Novato, CA
The book frame is slightly larger than a Lotus frame. I'm 6 foot 190 lbs. and have plenty of room in my book frame. I almost rattle around in there.


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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 12, 2019, 3:39 am 
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nick47 wrote:
The book frame is slightly larger than a Lotus frame. I'm 6 foot 190 lbs. and have plenty of room in my book frame. I almost rattle around in there.


Thanks, that is very helpful! I believe geek49203 about improvising as one goes on. Ian Roussel of the TV show Full Custom Garage on the Motor Trend channel is, I think, the master improvising.


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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 12, 2019, 8:47 am 
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TooBusy wrote:
Book frames are really small. My R1 powered car was a book frame and I can't imagine trying to shoehorn in Miata bits.
The e Mod Sr20DET car was a 442 frame and used a full Miata rear subframe with a RX8 center section.

Several pics of the frame and subframe setup in my log


Dont be discouraged by Toobusy’s lack of imaginagtion. Miata donor in a book frame has been done a plenty. It, and you, will fit just fine. Many exampes of book and plus size Miata builds on the forum. Have fun!

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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 14, 2019, 9:02 am 
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It's not lack of imagination, it's ease of access and ability to service. I've built three 7ish cars and owned a couple of others. The one common thread, cramped packaging under the bonnet.

Book frames are neat, but personally, I'd never build another one. To each his own.

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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 14, 2019, 10:30 am 
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Chuck is correct, I have a book frame, that was Miata powered. It used a Miata engine and trans, uprights, but I 1st Gen RX7 solid rear axle. It has a 1 1/4 square tube spacer that runs from the nosecone to the scuttle. This was because the car originally ran a late NB Miata engine with VVT. The Miata VVT valve sticks straight up from the front of the can cover, so that is what required the spacer. That extra room was then used by the Honda K24A2 engine. I wish I had a little more headroom in the engine compartment as the Honda motor sits a little to low for my liking and I would like a little extra ground clearance.

But I do fit in the car, I am 6'3" and 230 pounds, it not exactly roomy but once strapped in with the 5 point harness you don't need much room. But that said, I would pick a larger frame if I started again, because of the engine compartment space, not the passenger compartment space. But the passenger space would be a bonus.

Graham


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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 14, 2019, 11:29 am 
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Location: Snohomish, WA
FastG wrote:
Chuck is correct, I have a book frame, that was Miata powered. It used a Miata engine and trans, uprights, but I 1st Gen RX7 solid rear axle. It has a 1 1/4 square tube spacer that runs from the nosecone to the scuttle. This was because the car originally ran a late NB Miata engine with VVT. The Miata VVT valve sticks straight up from the front of the can cover, so that is what required the spacer. That extra room was then used by the Honda K24A2 engine. I wish I had a little more headroom in the engine compartment as the Honda motor sits a little to low for my liking and I would like a little extra ground clearance.

But I do fit in the car, I am 6'3" and 230 pounds, it not exactly roomy but once strapped in with the 5 point harness you don't need much room. But that said, I would pick a larger frame if I started again, because of the engine compartment space, not the passenger compartment space. But the passenger space would be a bonus.

Graham


According to drawings I have found, the Champion book frame is 42" wide at the bulkhead behind the seats and the Gibbs book frame is 44" wide at that point. The length of the cockpits appears to be the same at 53.5". Which book frame did you make? I have been planning on using a 1994-1997 NA Miata in order to get the 1.8 engine. I see that the Gibbs frame is 1" taller than the Champion frame and I like that.

Also, I had been wondering why many locosts look to me a little different than a Lotus Seven around the cockpit area. I think it may be that the Lotus scuttle is farther back than cars with the book frame, making the locost cockpit look more wide open. The only Lotus Seven drawings I could find didn't have that dimension, or the drawing was at such low resolution that I couldn't make out what the drawing says.


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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 14, 2019, 11:52 am 
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Mine is a Champion size and the passenger compartment is 42" wide. But you have to be a little careful because in my car the trans tunnel is not in the middle of the chassis, it's over towards the passenger side. So you could build a wider can put the tunnel in the middle and actually end up with a smaller diver space, you have to look at the actual plans to see the real sizes.

Your right about the depth on the passenger compartment compared to other 7's. Look at my post as I am trying to fix that

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=19644&p=245813#p245813

Graham


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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 14, 2019, 1:52 pm 
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Joined: January 31, 2012, 12:49 pm
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Location: Louisville KY
The Champion book is +3?? over the original 7.
The Haynes book is +221 over the Champion book, so it's 5" wide.

I'm 6'1" and 220 or so pounds and I got in / out of an original. I had to take off my shoes to do the pedals tho. And my right hand (it was right-hand drive) dragged on the ground.

It was akin to getting into a kayak or mummy bag (without unzipping it)

The original 7 gains back around 2-3" because the center tunnel is very narrow.

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Louisville, KY
Hayes front, S10 +2 rear, Lalo body.
Girlfriend thinks I'm nuts for building this....


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 Post subject: Re: Book frame/Miata
PostPosted: January 14, 2019, 10:40 pm 
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Joined: October 12, 2018, 2:28 am
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Location: Snohomish, WA
Thanks for your additional comments. I'm thinking it may be best to have the major drivetrain components on hand before welding anything. I'd like to get the transmission tunnel as narrow as possible, especially in the footwells.


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