LocostUSA.com

I currently have 5 point system and while it gives a very secure and confident feeling, it does take quite a bit of effort to get in and out of the car. For a street car, it is an unnecessarily complex operation. Add to that, the ordeal of adjusting those belts for each new passenger. So far my pasengers have ranged from 98lbs to ~300 lbs. My car is used on the street 100% off the time. When I am properly mounted in my harness, I can barely reach the wipers and light controls with my outstretched fingertips, so that is an issue too. My current harness ends can be draped over the side and across the mufffler if I am not carefull. The muffler is on the passenger side, so I have to constantly remind others about this situation. Draping that end can also scratch the polished aluminum sides. Unfortunately, you have to drape it in order to keep from sitting on it as you get in the seat. I'm hoping to make this a more enjoyable street car.

So without getting into the safety discussions of 2 vs. 3; vs. 4 thru 6 point belts, I'd like to focus on the implementaion of 3 point systems. Inboard shoulder belts vs. outboard belts and fixed vs inertia mounts.

So here are my current concerns:

Regarding an inertia-reel system, I have seen photos somewhere of the reel being mounted on the roll bar upright. Besides looking out of place, the mechanism might be exposed to the elements (such as rain and stones kicked up from the front wheels) which may not be such a good idea. I'm also not sure that I have the vertical distance to mount them there and still fit the added strap guide without it bing too high. I don't have space to mount it low near the floor behind the seats. Maybe the reels could be mounted under the rear tonneau but they would still be exposed to under-vehicle road "stuff", There, it would not be as visible to monitor their condition. I'm not sure inertia reels are designed to stand up to such an environment. Should I be afraid of these mechanisms rusting or gettin gunk in them reducing their effectiveness?

If I go with a non-reel system, I would not have to worry about the mechanism rusting up. I would still limit my reach to the dash to some degree, but not as much as a full harness. The adjusting for different passengers would still be required, albeit, a much easier process.

Regardless of the reel vs. no-reel system, I currently have a small annoyance with the outboard shoulder strap of my 5-point fluttering about in the breeze so maybe mounting the shoulder strap inboard would help to minimize that. I see that the 3-wheel Morgan mounts the shoulder belts centrally.

I am currently leaning towards switching to an inertial reel system with the reels mounted between the seats. It eliminates the adjustment issue, keeps the vertical run of the shoulder strap out of the outboard airflow(?), and keeps it fairly out of the elements (I have a hardtop). Photoman mounted his belts in this manner. Am I missing any things I should consider?

I am willing to listen to all voices. Personal experience carries a bit more weight than unsubstantiated opinions however.

Discussion, comments or suggestions may now begin.

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Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

Hi Chuck,

Another possibility is the inertia reel 4 point harness. They make them now for aircraft. http://www.basinc-aeromod.com

This is possibly something that could be manufactured at home by using a 4 or 5 point harness and hooking the shoulder straps (at a fixed length) up to an inertia reel from a regular 3 point system. Having examined the way seat belts are sewn together it doesn't look like a very hard thing to do to me. I flew a Cessna that had them installed and they were great...could reach everything, didn't feel constrained yet knew that I'd have proper/better restraint in the event of an accident or hard landing.

In reference to your statement "Personal experience carries a bit more weight than unsubstantiated opinions however" I'll confess to not yet having built my own set but I'm going to try it out (for my car not my plane...homemade belts in the plane would be illegal, gotta be legal in a homemade car though ).

Bill

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Bill H
Winnipeg, MB, Canada

I am in no way a seatbelt expert. However, I did see something interesting on a car build show last week. These guys were doing a BMW junker for a 24 Hours of LeMons kind of race. They still (wisely) put in a roll cage and genuine racing seat secured to same.

For the show they had a guy come in who outfits NASCAR teams with safety gear. Long story short, he demonstrated how it is important to stop the acceleration of the lower body first, then the shoulders, hence neck and head. My take-away, and personal interpretation, was that that maybe the lap and crotch belts in my Locost should be fixed, while the shoulder belt could be inertia reel. That would still allow the movement we all desire, but satisfy the first (apparent) rule for serious seatbelt setups.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886

The Birkin has a standard inertia 3 point belt with the inertia reel outboard. The reel is mounted low on the rear bulkhead, but in a recess so that the belt runs parallel and near to the bulkhead, without the inertia reel interfering with the seat. Sorry - but I have no photos.

I've thought about inboard inertia reels, but my inspector wasn't keen when I floated the idea - although some Bimmers or Mercs have their rear 3 points that way. I suppose the upper body might rotate outboard and in way of the pavement with inbord retractors in the event of a roll-over .... Bimmers and Mercs probably have airbags to deal with those sorts of issues.

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Warren
Isuzu Pickup/SR20DE, +401 COLD frame
Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=11601

I'm not sure I'm following correctly, but my assumption is that "inboard" would put the upper end of both the driver's and passenger's belts being located nearly together in the center of the vehicle. My concern with such an arrangement is that in a frontal impact, if the bodies were to twist, both the driver's and passenger's heads would be directed towards each other as their upper bodies rotated.

I've posted about this concern before in other threads, and it probably is something that can be looked at on a case by case basis. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that our bodies travel much further around the inside of a car that we'd normally ever expect in an accident. I've seen video of a diver locked down tightly in a 5 point harness and still seen their helmet travel 8" beyond what was supposed to be possible based on a static inspection. With a 3 point system, there is significantly more body travel available.

As a counterpoint, a 3 point system set-up like most conventional front seat 3 point belt systems, when faced with the same frontal impact, would tend to want to rotate the driver and passenger's heads outside of the confines of the body. I'm not suggesting either course of action, just considering possibilities.

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.. in the world

Thanks for the discussion so far. Keep it coming.



I have shortened seat belts before. And I agree, there is nothing other than a good machine and the proper needle / thread required to do so. Getting any required approvals, (not for me BTW) would be difficult.



It would be ideal I guess. I have no space for mounting them in the cockpit as my seat back sits flush against the bulkhead and there is zero space alongside my seat squab. Maybe, had I thought this out a bit earlier......


Makes a lot of sense. I think my fixed 5-point does not allow for that, hense the 5th anti-submarine section.



point taken. I have looked at some crash videos from pre-airbag periods. In most of those crashes, the driver does not rotate. I think it has to do his ( His? Do crash dummies have gender?) head slamming into the steering wheel dissapating all the energy before coming to the full extension of the shoulder belt. The passenger seems to have a 50-50 chance of rotating upper body outboard. From what I have observed, even when the torso twists, the head only rotates sideways. It seems to still move directly forward. But I am just a layperson with 15 minutes of expertise. I'm not a professional crash expert.

I think that in all the the current cars with airbags, the airbags play a big role in controlling any upper body twist. I really don't think that inboard or outboard shoulder mounts make much of a difference with them.

I am really leaning towards (no pun intended) the central mount inertia belt. I still have a month or so before I start to think about changing things over. So keep the discussion going.

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Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

Chuck,

You may want to take a look at the three point system used in back seat of the Jeep Wrangler TJ, 2004-2006. The reel is at the base of the roll bar and a keeper is mounted to the roll bar.

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K0RKK 146.460
spearfishcreek.net
Royce

Thanks Royce. I was thinking about them.

Has anybody seen the Humvee (military version) upgrade belts being sold on eBay and all over the 'net? A complete setup for 2 seats including reinforcement bracketry/bolts etc. for the Humvee. Looks too good to be true for <$30 delivered. I may just have to give it a try.....At that price, maybe 2 just in case I screw 1 up.

edited: I did check online and others have used them in Jeeps and other vehicles successfully. I couldn't wait. I just bought 1 set. I'll decide whether I'll mount them outwards or inwards later. Will let you guys know how it all works out.

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Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

I have installed inertia belts out of American cars in dune buggies and the rear seat of Yamaha Rhinos (side-X-Side). One thing to keep in mind when doing that is that the distance from reel to shoulder loop is greater in the original car. The closer that shoulder loop is to the reel, the more belt that will be wrapped while in use and even more when exiting the vehicle. The reel can only hold so much belting. The manufacturers put just enough belting on so that there are only a few laps around the reel axle while you're wearing the belt. They do this so that in case of accident, when the inertia pendulum swings and locks the reel, there are not 7 layers of belt on the reel that needs to be tightened up. This "reel" slack along with the normal "movement" slack is what caused Mercedes and one other man. I believe, to pre-tighten the belts when the crash sensor goes off.

Tom

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Sometimes, I'm as confused as a baby in a topless bar.

My short term memory is absolutely horrible and so is my short term memory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG16m2e4O6I

Gotcha!

BTW, I didn't mention this but they meet FMVSS safety requirements too.

This is the ebay link:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Seatbelt-K ... 6e&vxp=mtr

Here is a closeup :


From what I can estimate, I should have enough length to reach when in use and not too much that it flops around when not in use. My only concern is the length of the fixed end may to too much, the piece with the release button. I guess at this price, I can take my chances.

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Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

I received the belts today. I must say, I am impressed. Unlike other surplus stuff, this is brand new in a pre-packaged kit ready for the install into a Humvee. I think I'll have some space issues when mounting the reels in the close congines of a Locost. They will not fit side by side between my seats. It would appear that these are similar in size to what is commonly available available as aftermarket systems.

The reel is 3-7/8 OAH x 3-5/8" wide and stands about 2-5/8" off the mounting surface. The belt, at minimum extends ~31" and has a full extension length of 113". Plenty of room to shorten if needed, which I probably will do.

The fixed end is 11-1/2" from the center of the mounting hole to the entrance end.

What I have found so far, is that the retractor must be installed with the belt's exit pointing straight upward. Any tilt, say about 10-15 degrees, in any direction forward-backward-left or right, will latch the belt without having to unreel the belt. This is probably a good thing. Of course, rapid unreeling will also lock the belt.

_________________
Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

I just got mine in. Sweet mother of Napoleon! Those big green triangle mounting thingies probably cost the military as much as some soldiers make in a year! Enough Grade 8 hardware to bolt the rest of the car together! And everything is labeled to within an inch of its life!

I found a very exhaustively complete PDF file of how to install these things in various military vehicles. Let me know if anyone wants a copy. Long story short -- the reel dispenses the belt "up".

Thanks!

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Geek49203 aka
Tim Wohlford
Louisville, KY
Hayes front, S10 +2 rear, Lalo body.

Great find! Almost makes me want to pick up a set of these 'just in case' I ever need them...Even if I don't end up using them in this build.

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie

I might have this set for daily driving, and install a 5-point next to it on the driver's side for track day, when I'd simply zip-tie down the retractable ones.

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Geek49203 aka
Tim Wohlford
Louisville, KY
Hayes front, S10 +2 rear, Lalo body.

Okay, I screwed up. I ordered TWO of these things, not fully comprehending that each of the orders has 2 belts in the kit. I will be selling the extra one w/o even opening the box. So, if someone wants a set, let me know -- same price as ebay (including the shipping).

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Geek49203 aka
Tim Wohlford
Louisville, KY
Hayes front, S10 +2 rear, Lalo body.