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 Post subject: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 24, 2014, 1:00 pm 
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Location: meadview arizona
first let me say this is about vapor lock in fuel injected engines.

anyone who believes this to be non existant has their head where the sun don't shine, although in my case it's the planets only sorce of solar activity.

most fi systems consist of a pump, probably in tank, a regulator to control pump pressure, possibly in tank or on the return end of the fuel rail, and a set of or at least one injector controlled by the pcm.

in addition there are some other components such as a filter, fuel pressure sensor in pump speed systems, a fuel pump relay and a test point, there may be other manufacturer specific items i have not mentioned.

the basic systems can be devided into two basic catagories, mechanical and electronic.

i will disregard the mechanical systems here as they are usually used in racing applications and are not relavant to my discussion.

electronic systems can be sub divided into return and returnless systems but in fact, returnless systems are still return systems but the return takes place much closer to the pump.

now to the heart of my subject, vapor lock, many will tell you this can't happen because the fuel is constantly returning to the tank and is kept cool in the process, they will also tell you that the pressures in an injection system prevent the fuel from boiling, neither of which is true although in principal they will lessen the liklyhood of vapor lock, will under certain circumstances not prevent it happening.

the closed system, this does not exist, they are all open at some point.

the main culpret is the regulator, this opens whenever the pressure in the system exceeds the design pressure.

when the system is activated by the ign key it pressurizes by the pump being activated for 2 seconds or there abouts, this may be more or less than the design pressure dependant on the volume of the system but is still pressure and is used to purge the system, remember this piece purge the system every time the key is turned on.

hot summer days here in AZ will cause fuel in the system to expand when the vehicle is parked after a drive, as a consiquence the pressure in the system will rise even without the engine running, this is at the heart of vapor locking, the regulator will exhaust this pressure down to the design pressure which is usually about 40psi.

let me say here that you can't compress a liquid, so the pressure is created by compressing the regulator spring.

to continue, if the external temp is so high that the static fuel in the system, especially the fuel rail on the hot engine, can boil, the pressure will rise even more just like the steam from a kettle and the bubble volume will increase expidentially as the rise in pressure causes the regulator to vent off.

now we have almost no fuel in the fuel rail at all but it is still at 40psi because we would now be measuring vapor pressure.

on an old style return system, when the key is turned on, the pump runs for 2 seconds causing flow in the system and the pressure rises slightly causing the regulator to open, dropping the pressure to the 40psi, now dependant upon the flow rate of the pump, it is HOPED that any vapor in the fuel rail is purged back to the tank, this may not happen whereby it is left to the injector pulses to purge the rail of vapor causing a nonstart situation, however, persiverence will succeed in clearing the vapor if the throttle is fully depressed while the engine is cranked dependant upon the electronics lengthening the pulse width.

on a non return system, the same 40psi is in the system and with the same conditions as above will expand, vaporizing, but as there is no flow when the key is turned on save that of a short path to the regulator in the tank the main supply line, filter and the fuel rail will not be cleared of vapor, now we have a serious case of vapor lock which will require considerably more cranking to expell through the injectors, if your vehicle electronics will not allow the pulse width to be increased at cranking when you press the throttle as it knows you are only cranking and does not want the engine flooded, we have a real problem.

the only solution i have found in this situation is to depress the test valve on the fuel rail and allow the vapors to be released whilst cycling the key to on, purging the system.

the main cause of this problem.
since hurricain catrina, oil companies have been reducing the amount of cleaning agents in gasoline whilst increasing the amount of ethyl which reduces the boiling point of the gas, add to this the fact that the deminishing octain rating is also contributing to the lower boiling point and the slower turn around of winter gas in spring time.

as far as i can tell 85% of current gas contains only 10% of the required cleaning agents needed to do a good job of cleaning injectors so what about the regulator, it too has a needle and seat so to speak which also needs cleaning, if it is not clean and allows pressure to drop when the engine is turned off, any help the fuel has of not boiling due to 40psi of pressure is gone and will boil just like that old carbed big block that was always hard to start in the heat.

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 24, 2014, 5:39 pm 
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Location: Cave Creek, AZ
John,

I don't know how your Ford PCM works, but on all of my Fords, when you depress and hold the gas pedal to the floor when the engine is cranked but not running yet the injectors are not pulsed at all. They still have the +12 volts on one side of the injector's coil,(typically the red wire) but the PCM does not send the needed ground to fire the injector.

I think I am experiencing this vapor lock on my Superformance S-1 and it has a return system. The under hood temperatures are so darn high due to their philosophy of enclosing the entire underside of the car, that even the return trip through the drive shaft tunnel adds more heat to the fuel.

I wonder if we Arizona guys are going to have to fit some kind of heat exchanger to our fuel lines?

Tom

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 24, 2014, 5:53 pm 
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I think the easier solution is to move somewhere cooler! ;)

On the Focus Duratec I'm using, the stock returnless fuel rail has a sensor that measured both fuel pressure and temperature. My understanding was that the ECU was smart enough to increase fuel pressure to increase the boiling point if everything wasn't in check. I'm sure there is a point where it is too little too late.

Interestingly enough I would occasionally have an issue where I'd get a nasty bog at the start of an autocross run and it would quickly clear out and be fine. Your post makes me wonder if I didn't have a little vapor in the rail thanks to the summer's heat.

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 24, 2014, 7:07 pm 
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Nah. I think that the temperature sensor is a way to determine the density of the fuel and thus, control the required mixture. I may be wrong though.

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 24, 2014, 7:25 pm 
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a.moore wrote:
I think the easier solution is to move somewhere cooler! ;)



Do you know how long it would take me to pack up all my SH!T?

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 24, 2014, 8:55 pm 
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Location: northampton ma
Hi. Well the term vapor lock came from the old carburator days, vapor would form between the fue pump an the tank from heat, the pump would expand an contract the vapor with every stroke,but no fuel till it cooled.
Fuel injection is another problem, most times the fuel rail will vent itself very quickly on start up,any vapor will flow faster through the injectors than liquid fuel.
Think about a new car, engine covers top and bottom,,250f oil temp,230 water temp, always start fine.
Most injected problems are on the suction side of the system, poor maintenance , design.??
Take a look at my return less system, good for over 400hp, starts fine ever after a 95f day heat soak, worst case it runs lean about 30 seconds.
Then there is the fuel, all my cars run best on Irving, 89 in all my runners,93 in the others.
About 13 more HP in my 350z compared to sunoco or Mobil.
I could go on if there are questions.


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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 25, 2014, 10:48 am 
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Location: Cave Creek, AZ
95F? That is our night time temperature here.

Tom

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 25, 2014, 10:11 pm 
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well the reason for the post is because i have a chevy astro which is return system and a chrysler 300m which is returnless.

first, the astro,

this problem occures after driving about 150 miles and then hitting traffic, within 5 miles of stop go traffic lights it will begin to run ruff and if stopped will fire but cut out immediatly, if i then open the hood for about 5 minutes it will cool enough to run and with my foot on the boards will eventually clear, but when re introduced to traffic the whole thing starts again, if i can make it to the freeway, then its good for another 150 miles or so.

there are no codes set, there is a brand new fuel pump and a new ignition module, engine coolant temp is below 200 degrees.

my next attempt at rectification is to replace the thermostat as i believe the radiator is not passing enough hot air to the viscouse clutch on the fan thus not providing air flow across the engine in traffic, i will also replace the fan clutch as i don't want the thing to fail when the thermostat raises the radiator temp.

i must admit that i suspect the fuel pressure regulator of not sealing and holding pressure after the engine is turned off but access to the test point on an astro is not easy, if the above two things do not rectify the problem then the dog house will have to be removed for further repair at which time i will test the fuel pressure after shut down.

as far as the chrysler is concerned, if i leave it after a 100 mile trip in 100 + degree temps on a black parking lot at the mall with a surface temp that will result in severe burns, for about 10 minutes then it will not start and the only way to make it run is to vent the vapor from the test port on the fuel rail with a hissing noise until fuel comes out, this is a non return system.

i have also started using chevron 91 octain as i believe it is at least, real gas!

Tom, if the injectors don't function, how does it start?
with regard to a fuel cooler, jaguar use a cooler on the xjs v12 it combines the cold ac line and the fuel line near the rail in an insulated section so that when its hot out the ac is on and the fuel is cooled.

Rad, 95 degrees is for wooses, you can fry eggs on the hood of a car that has not run for 20 years, just sittin' in the sun.

RX7, as the fuel heat soaks, the pressure rises and the regulator opens, that is until vapor occurs, when density becomes moot.

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 25, 2014, 10:37 pm 
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Most PCM nowadays don't fire the injectors if the engine is not running and the throttle position sensor is at full voltage of I believe 5 volts returned. Anything less than 5 volts returned and they are fired. In other words, when the gas pedal is on its way to the floorboard or on its way back, the injectors will fire normally, giving enough gas to get the engine running. But while it is pinned to the floorboard ( and returning a full 5 volts to the PCM) the injectors do not fire. It is the engine designer's way to let you clear a flooded engine.

On your Astro van's problem, I think your fan clutch is weak. While the engine is off, reach in and spin the fan by hand. If it makes more than 1/2 of a revolution, it is shot. I learned this very expensive lesson on a Dodge bucket truck, where I replaced an engine, the radiator, added a dual exhaust with free flowing cats, only to find out the fan's clutch had lost enough of the silicone to become weak and not lock up when needed. Damn that was a painfull lesson.

Tom

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 26, 2014, 6:53 am 
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Since you are able to start the engine with a few cycles of the key to cycle the pump long enough to purge the line past the injectors, just add a jumper to the fuel pump relay through a momentary switch to ground (or power if required by the relay design for control).

Don't have to cut a hole, just tape the two wires together leaving enough length from the momentary that the momentary can be pulled out a foot or so, then tucked away. The relay should not have power when the key is off so pressing the momentary by accident won't change anything, running or not. Won't set any codes either.

Then you just turn the key to "run" (meanwhile pump runs a couple seconds anyway), then press the momentary as long as you want to purge and engage the starter. Kind of reminds me of manual glow plugs on a diesel in practice.

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 26, 2014, 9:41 am 
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I have a similar (perhaps the same) problem with the Alpine (return system), but do not think it is a fuel problem. I think the heat soak creates a situation in which the air intake sensor reading is not representive of actual air temperature in the manifold.

I think that if the heat soak increases the fuel rail pressure, the FPR is not doing its job. After all, it is SUPPOSED to regulate pressure. It should do that regardless of temperature or medium (liquid or gas).

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 26, 2014, 12:25 pm 
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BBlue,

it is exactly that fact that the regulator is able to regulate liquid or vapor which i feel is at the route of the problem.

in a return system, the fill line and the return line both have fuel in them but the "hot spot" is the fuel rail which is at approx mid way in the system, fuel can't expand back down the fill line as the pump has a non return valve, but the pressure regulator will open as the heated fuel expands in volume, the pressure will remain the same, even if the fuel turns to a vapor.

it is the behavour of the vapor that is tricky to predict, will it expand in two directions or just towards the regulator, considering it would form in the top of a tube at the outset, will it travel in both directions?

in a closed system, it must travel back towards the tank down the supply line or the pressure would increase, this could displace so much fuel that the injectors take a long time to expell the vapors.

yes as stated above, the fan clutch may be part of the problem and that will be changed today along with the thermostat.

i have changed the make and grade of fuel, this is probably at the heart of the problem as at this time of year we are in a transition time from winter to summer gas formula, with a sudden rise in temp i believe i have caught the gas stations napping and there are too many aromatics in the fuel, the fault has not just occured on one vehicle, this is like a small epedemic here which people attribute to a condition like water in the gas.

the hood temp on the astro was 157 degrees at 9.15 this morning, the van has not been started for 3 days! and it hasn't got warm here yet the temp in the shade at 9.15 was 87 degrees, when it gets to 120 degrees, you can imagine how hot the hood would get, now translate that to the temp of a black top parking lot in mid summer.

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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 26, 2014, 12:48 pm 
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Chin up! Everything's gonna be OK. :lol:

You just may be walking is all.

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Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
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Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
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 Post subject: Re: vapor lock
PostPosted: May 26, 2014, 1:11 pm 
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John, I'm not sure I understand your concern, but the vapor will migrate uphill, regardless of which direction that may be. When fuel starts to flow, it becomes a battle between gravity and fuel flow as to where the vapor ends up. The idea is for it to be forced into the tank.

Perhaps you could experiment with fuel rail construction. Be sure fuel enters at the rear and travels (uphill) to the front, then uphill to the FPR. That would ensure that any fuel released by the FPR would be gaseous. Maybe even a small reservoir, on the pressure side, next to the FPR to allow vapor to accumulate harmlessly.

Bill


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