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 Post subject: supercharging
PostPosted: October 26, 2017, 2:13 pm 
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well a friend of mine just sold me an M90 Eaton blower for $100.00, it came with all the components for an install on a thunderbird super coupe.

all the junk to install it is just about useless to me if i want to fit it to my locost but the blower itself is going on the car.

first off, the length of the blower is almost exactly the same from the front pulley to the middle of the outlet as is the engine from the pulleys to the middle of the ports in the head, so it should align quite well.

looking at how much room i have under the hood, it will fit without cutting a hole in the hood or interfering with anything under the hood.

i will be making a log style manifold to bolt to the head with runners and a plenium with the blower on it pointing the outlet down, this appears to be really straight forward as the top of the plenium is almost straight in line with the top of the ports in the head.

the inlet of the blower is about the same hight as the throttle body was on the focus manifold so the throttle cable will probably fit.

now we have the complicated stuff and a lot of questions.

1. egr valve
2. map sensor
3. throttle body
4. maf sensor
5. injector size
6. pcm
7.fuel pressure
8. O2 sensor

first let me say that in arizona there is no state inspections and as i am moving to florida the same applies so the door is wide open to modifications that will set the mil.

the egr valve, well that isn't a tough one is it, just blank it off, but wait, will that have an effect on ignition timing, does the timing change when the valve opens because the charge takes longer or shorter to burn, we don't want an advance condition when we are on boost.
maybe if it is unplugged the pcm will ignore it and leave the timing alone, it may just sit there blocking the hole in the head and not require a modification to the water pipes at the back of the engine.

the map sensor is as far as i can find out, a 1bar unit and i will be boosting to about 1.5 bar so maybe this will have to change to a 2 bar sensor, i also think that the sensor notes the pressure in the manifold when the egr opens but the maf sensor notes a drop in inlet air volume which tells the pcm that the egr has opened and alters the timing.

throttle body, if i do not change this there may be a problem where the pcm thinks i am always accelerating due to the tps position and the input from the maf but i don't think this will happen but wide open throttle may be restricted.

can the maf sensor handle the additional air with regard to maintaining fuel supply, i'm at 3500 ft at the moment but intend to move to where its about sea level will it run out of voltage when it gets to 3000 rpm? and not know that the engine is way off peak rpm because it is only designed to flow a certain amount of air.

injector size may need an increase of around 30% to flow enough fuel quickly enough in the lower gears when accelerating, so what size of injectors do i have now, they are stock and how do i know if they are 20lb. injectors or what?

fuel pressure may be compromised if i increase the injector size so i may need a walbro pump but what size, its in the tank.

O2 sensor may be o.k. for running the motor at lambda but will it achieve lambda, i will probably need a wide band kit to see what is happening.

now i have assumed that i will use the EEC-V pcm but will this be a mistake, should i buy a megasquert form a vendor that is plug and play, i have a 104 pin plug on my pcm, i am not as adventurous as i was 20 years ago.
would this help from the get go with all of the above and just run a map or maf, not both.
i would prefer to go this way over a tune from someone who is guessing all be it educated guesswork, i think i could keep the mixture at around 14.7-1 or at least 13.5 to 15 and if it knocks i could just pull timing out where needed or add a bit where it goes too rich, although i have never done any of that on computer controlled engines.

if anyone can throw some light on any of this i would appreciate it, thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 26, 2017, 6:20 pm 
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john hennessy wrote:
now i have assumed that i will use the EEC-V pcm but will this be a mistake, should i buy a megasquert form a vendor that is plug and play, i have a 104 pin plug on my pcm, i am not as adventurous as i was 20 years ago.


If I'm remembering correctly, your Locost is a 2.3 Duratec Ranger engine, right?

100% Megasquirt. The engine will not run right without a tune, and by the time you pay for a device and a tune you're basically covered the cost of a Megasquirt. If you can wire an entire Locost, you can hook up a few wires to the Megasquirt. Once you go Megasquirt, the answers to your questions are really easy:

1. egr valve: Ditch it
2. map sensor: GM 3-bar MAP sensor
3. throttle body: Keep it
4. maf sensor: Ditch it
5. injector size: see below
6. pcm: Megasquirt
7.fuel pressure: Stock
8. O2 sensor: Wideband

Injector size - according to this thread, the stock injectors are ~23# and support 140hp at 40psi and 170hp at 60psi (not sure if you're running return-style or returnless). Your injectors are probably EV1 style:

https://www.fswerks.com/products/bosch- ... ectors-ev1

42# injectors would be enough to cover 250 crank hp on E85, and more power than that on regular fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 26, 2017, 7:54 pm 
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Location: meadview arizona
laminar

thanks for the response just as i thought, that's why i posed the question.

the fuel system is returnless so i may need more pressure, can i squash the regulator a bit or do i need an adjustable regulator?

it would be nice to plug and play without any diy, any advice as to where to buy?

wide band, will this run the car or is it just for setup and tuning?

should i use a 2 bar or 3 bar map sensor?

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 26, 2017, 10:17 pm 
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Joined: June 8, 2010, 8:02 pm
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Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
Highly recommend you fit a water/air intercooler in your plans. Keeping it cool and getting more timing will make more power than adding more boost.
Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 27, 2017, 2:24 am 
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john hennessy wrote:
the fuel system is returnless so i may need more pressure, can i squash the regulator a bit or do i need an adjustable regulator?


I believe the returnless systems run at ~65psi so you shouldn't need to touch pressure. You'd just want to make sure that your pump has enough volume to feed the additional power. 250hp necessitates about 130 lph of flow for E85. A little Googling doesn't immediately reveal the stock pump's capacity, but it probably wouldn't be too difficult to find a 255 lph drop-in replacement.

Quote:
it would be nice to plug and play without any diy, any advice as to where to buy?


It looks like DIYautotune.com has a "DIY PNP" for the EEC-V connector. Basically you solder up some wires from the Megasquirt box to a male EEC-V connector and then just plug in your engine harness. They don't have any pure plug and play boxes.

Although their site notes that the EEC-V adapter doesn't work with Mazda-derived engines including the Duratec. What style connector does your ECU have?

Quote:
wide band, will this run the car or is it just for setup and tuning?


In theory, you can use the wideband for startup and tuning, then pull it off once the car is set up. In practice, it's a really good thing to have at all times to know how your engine is feeling, especially with forced induction. I'm running a naturally aspirated V8 and I keep a wideband on each bank. It makes it super easy to spot misfires and help pinpoint where they're coming from.

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should i use a 2 bar or 3 bar map sensor?


The GM 3 bar sensor seems to be the gold standard.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 27, 2017, 11:16 am 
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Seeing this thread makes me want to buy a car that popped up on my local Craigslist. There a Focus ZX3 with the Zetec motor and a Judson supercharger kit for $600.

Guy wrecked the car before he figured out what boost would do to power and handling.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 27, 2017, 1:14 pm 
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well without sounding like a complete moron,

looking at the diyautotune site i am confused, all the words and jargon used is or might as well be russian or arabic

all i want to do is add the right amount of fuel for the intake charge and light it.
can megasquert boxes run my speedo?

perhaps i should have done some testing before i took the intake off like disconnecting the maf just to see if it would run, then add a 3bar map sensor and find someone who could change the fuel to voltage parameters to add more fuel per volt increase and be able to move the spark around a bit
i will only be seeing about 5 lbs boost anyway as i don't want to fit any expensive engine hardware.

i recently got some quotes for house insurance and boy do they want to add things to your policy for every eventuality that might happen and you worry that if you make a claim that the adjuster will disallow it as you are not covered for a meteor strike or post nuclear winter giant ants eating your house, well that seems to be where i am with megasquirt

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 28, 2017, 7:49 am 
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John, short of direct injection, Megasquirt 3X can be configured to run anything and do anything. That is its upside. The downside is that because of this flexibility, it "fits" nothing, can be a bear to wrap your mind around and requires a certain mindset to understandand. The fuel pressure on return less systems control fuel pressure by regulating pump speed which Megasquirt can do. No regulator involved.

To me, you are approaching this project in an "almost pregnant" manner, but it is an all or none situation. Consider ditching your current engine control system, with all its unknowns and go to Megasquirt. No need to rewire your car, MS is on speaking terms with Ford sensors and controls. Just figure out which wire goes where and how to configure the MegaSquirt.

Then figure out how to control your n/a engine. That will keep you out of the bars for a while. Then install the blower. That will probably drive you to drink. :)

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 28, 2017, 11:39 am 
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thanks for all the replies guys,

bill, the returnless system on my car is not one like the focus with a variable speed pump, like my chrysler 300 it just pumps fuel with a regulator in the tank between the pump and the outlet.

as my previous post was a bit of a panic after reading what diyautotune site had to offer i am now looking at Tweecar which plugs in the back of my existing pcm and takes over control of the functions, its mappable.

it does not go between the pcm and the plug, it is not a replacement chip on the board and does not use the OBD 11 to program, you program it directly from a lap top

cost is less than a megasquirt and the only extras i will need are an air/fuel meter and wide band O2 sensor, i am able to keep everything else, they even have tutorials on youtube.

if i take the blower off, i can just unplug it and the tune reverts to the original and if i want to change the pcm for some reason i can and the tune stays with the Tweecar for the new pcm, it basicly high jacks the board from the factory chip.

the software needed is free and will allow me to do all the things with my stock computer that i would need from megasquirt

the EEC-V computer can be hacked it has an EEPROM if you had the ford software to do it however ford will only lease it to you, by high jacking the board it has its own EEPROM which you program.

i will investigate it some more however before pulling the trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 28, 2017, 6:20 pm 
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People generally like the Moates Quarterhorse better than the Tweecer. And I know of at least one guy that regrets messing with the Quarterhorse and its limitations and wishes he'd gone Megasquirt in the first place.

http://www.moates.net/quarterhorse-for-fords-p-199.html

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 28, 2017, 6:46 pm 
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john hennessy wrote:
well without sounding like a complete moron,

looking at the diyautotune site i am confused, all the words and jargon used is or might as well be russian or arabic

all i want to do is add the right amount of fuel for the intake charge and light it.


You want to add the right amount of fuel for the:
- Intake charge
- Coolant temperature
- Intake air temperature
- Manifold pressure
- RPM
- Throttle position
...and more.

Quote:
can megasquert boxes run my speedo?


Probably.

Quote:
perhaps i should have done some testing before i took the intake off like disconnecting the maf just to see if it would run, then add a 3bar map sensor and find someone who could change the fuel to voltage parameters to add more fuel per volt increase and be able to move the spark around a bit


The ECM does a bit more than that.

Here's the manual you can read through:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Megasqui ... Up-3.4.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 28, 2017, 6:56 pm 
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The OP is getting good advice. I'll echo what was said before; you're going to have give up finding a magic off the shelf solution that will "just work". There's no way around proper tuning.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 29, 2017, 1:25 pm 
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a question, as if it's not all questions
what happens if the map sensor never saw boost but only vacuum?

the set up i am considering has the maf then an intake runner with the crank case breather and a take off for the tps, then the throttle body, then the tps return, then the pcv valve, then the map, then the supercharger, then a pressure relief of some kind, then the head so the map sensor would only see vacuum and it is supposed to read from absolute vacuum to 14.7 lbs of pressure.
it does not concern it's self with the quantity of air just at what pressure, the maf measures the mass of air going in.
then combined with the o2 sensor trims the fuel load to suit that amount of air at around 14-1.

my concern is that the maf will handle the total amount of air ingested at 6000 rpm or will it run out of volts (0 volts to 5 volts) when the supercharger demand out strips the original engine demand, should i replace the maf with one from a bigger engine, (at 7 lbs of boost i would need a maf from an engine of 3.54 liters) or alternatively adjust the quantity of fuel in the fuel map to be richer per volt.

perhaps i could find a similar EEC-V pcm from a bigger engine, say a 3.8 of the same year that had 4 cylinders?

or am i missing something, after all i am getting old and sometimes i can be a little vacant.

i do think this is a valid discussion point as i have never been one to just throw money at a problem and always looked for a cheap and simple solution that may just be hiding around the corner, after all, i could just throw $3000 + at the problem and get a kit with a tune, right now i have $133.00 invested in this project.

as far as a QH, the battery will go flat in 7 years, will it still be supported by then?

i am looking for something that once set can be ignored from then on

E85 is it really 85% or does it vary? from experience with alcohol based fuels in the past, the actual quantity of fuel needed to burn is at least twice that of petrol and chemical make up damaging components which places a larger demand on the whole fuel system.
yes it is happy with the higher combustion pressure but that is all it has to offer and unless you do increase this pressure and considerable ignition advance you do not get a clean burn resulting in cat contamination problems and oil dilution as a result of blow by, not to mention the life of bearings in the bottom end due to the added advanced ignition, so to me it's a non starter especially in the middle of Arizona where there are no gas stations dispensing the stuff. i have run supercharged engines on methanol with static compression above 10-1 and at least 15 lbs of boost) at that point the physical structure of the engine starts to be a limiting factor and you are one wet plug not firing or a spark leaking from the ignition and hydraulicing takes the head off or the crank out of the bottom.
there is also the question of engine temps, or lack of, stopping the thing from warming up to operating temperature, thus needing even more fuel to run.
no, as with excessive consumption of bath tub gin, (mothers ruin) E85 is the road to ruin for my little engine

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 29, 2017, 3:12 pm 
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To answer one of your questions.....found on a few other websites......
Quote:
E85 (or flex fuel) is a term that refers to high-level ethanol-gasoline blends containing 51%-83% ethanol, depending on geography and season (

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: October 29, 2017, 4:26 pm 
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john hennessy wrote:
a question, as if it's not all questions
what happens if the map sensor never saw boost but only vacuum?

my concern is that the maf will handle the total amount of air ingested at 6000 rpm or will it run out of volts (0 volts to 5 volts) when the supercharger demand out strips the original engine demand, should i replace the maf with one from a bigger engine, (at 7 lbs of boost i would need a maf from an engine of 3.54 liters) or alternatively adjust the quantity of fuel in the fuel map to be richer per volt.


Megasquirt can use a MAF-only setup and use the MAP sensor for barometric adjustment at startup only. With a supercharger, your boost is pretty directly locked to your RPM. The stock MAF may cover 250hp, it's hard to say without knowing the calibration. You can pull any MAF out of the junkyard that has a known calibration, use this page for MAF curves. The 5.0 Explorer is a good source - the junkyard is littered with them and they're the correct voltage-signal 4-wire type.

But you need to know how much boost you're running, and having the MAP sensor on the boost side is definitely best practice. The 2012-up Focus ST with a factory turbo actually has no MAF at all and runs MAP only. With the MAP on the boost side.

Quote:
perhaps i could find a similar EEC-V pcm from a bigger engine, say a 3.8 of the same year that had 4 cylinders?


Ford's biggest four cylinder engine is a 2.5L.

Quote:
i do think this is a valid discussion point as i have never been one to just throw money at a problem and always looked for a cheap and simple solution that may just be hiding around the corner, after all, i could just throw $3000 + at the problem and get a kit with a tune, right now i have $133.00 invested in this project.


The Megasquirt is the cheap and simple solution. You could go with a Haltech or other name-brand ECU for $2000+, the MS is a steal at <$500. If you really want to get dirty with bad solutions that are cheap but won't work well, there are modifications you can do to the stock MAF like shoving a paperclip somewhere or putting a resistor inline to mess with the reading and make the ECU think that more air is passing through so it will enrich the mixture. But I've never ever ever seen someone do that and end up happy with it.

Quote:
i am looking for something that once set can be ignored from then on


I built my Megasquirt two years ago and haven't had to touch it since. I gave it a minor retune when I changed the intake tubing, but that's it. Once it's dialed in, it's done.

Quote:
no, as with excessive consumption of bath tub gin, (mothers ruin) E85 is the road to ruin for my little engine


E85 content varies, you'll need a flex fuel sensor to feed the ECU data on how much ethanol is in the fuel. E85 is a proven winner with boosted engines as long as they're set up properly with components that are resistant to the ethanol. Everything has to be sized a little bigger, but the high octane is a major help when it comes to preventing knock, especially when boosting engines that didn't originally come with forced induction. Obviously it's no fun and no use if you can't find it nearby.

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