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 Post subject: Delta Wing at Le Mans
PostPosted: June 17, 2012, 8:45 am 
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The Gurney Nissan delta wing was looking very good at Le Mans. That is until taken out by a Toyota LMP car... Hmmmm low buck effort gets the headlines and the 50million plus effort by Toyota puts it off the track.. Not saying it was on purpose, it's just a bit "funny" far as I'm concerned. Reminds me of the lotus 23? Light, low drag and very quick.

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PostPosted: June 17, 2012, 1:25 pm 
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That was a serious bit of poor driving by Nakajima in the Toyota, about on par with his F1 career.


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PostPosted: June 17, 2012, 3:18 pm 
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I have mixed feelings about the SpeedTV covereage here in the 'States regarding the Delta.

They had to know that a big chunk of their audience was more interested in the Delta, by far, then they were interested in which Toyota car was in first in LMP1. So I have to wonder why they went a while in showing video, updating the audience, etc.

Perhaps the metaphor I'm looking for here is I hoped they'd give the Delta car the "Danica" treatment? Or perhaps the "Dale Junior" treatment?

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PostPosted: June 17, 2012, 3:26 pm 
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It is a VERY unique car. Significant departure from the norm. The Toyota's were pretty fast, but one tried to pass a Ferrari in a bad spot and they crashed very hard. They crashed out the Delta wing with bad driving. Not sorry the megabuck effort produced nothing, they were not being driven well in that sense.

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PostPosted: June 17, 2012, 4:25 pm 
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bremms wrote:
...one tried to pass a Ferrari in a bad spot and they crashed very hard.


I'd like to get the comments from others here -- but if you're talking about that mega-crash where Anthony Davidson got hurt, I'm thinking that the Toyota had the inside line, was more than "along side", and that wasn't a result of Davidson's mistake? Is there something about that chicane where it narrows to one groove at that point?

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PostPosted: June 17, 2012, 6:28 pm 
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That one was not Davidsons fault per se. But it was not a good place to pass, closing speeds are too high. Super high speed corner, certain the Ferrari didn't know he was going inside. He should have know he was there in any case, but Mulsane corner is not probably not the best place to pass.

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PostPosted: June 18, 2012, 10:31 am 
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An informative Gordon Kirby article on the Deltawing here. It's great to see Dan Gurney's involvement and the use of 30 year-old outlawed technology. Judging by fan interest, IndyCar made a big mistake by not choosing the 'Wing. I love it when out-of-box thinking makes it to the track. Or, should I say thinking-that-redefines-the-box?

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PostPosted: June 18, 2012, 12:49 pm 
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Pe7e wrote:
An informative Gordon Kirby article on the Deltawing here.


Did anyone as old as me notice the Michelin ZX tyres on the front? - nice touch.


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PostPosted: June 18, 2012, 2:38 pm 
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Pe7e wrote:
Judging by fan interest, IndyCar made a big mistake by not choosing the 'Wing.
Pete


As a member of the IndyCar media circus, I have to respectfully disagree.

That car, when proposed, had never even been built in prototype form. Had the thing actually been built, crash tested, and run on various Indy venues (ie, uh, "Indy") then at least the review board would've know what they were voting on. It's one thing to build a mock up, still another to scrape up the money for one prototype and take it to one race, but it is quite another to sign up for 50+ cars in the first year and run it at 16 venues, from Texas Motor Speedway (high banked ovals) to Indy (flat ro-val) to road and street courses.

Second, even if built, the manufacturers had to show they could keep up with demand under the costs specified. A few weeks ago, following Indy, there was an owner's meeting where they discussed the high costs of spares, and the scarcity of some parts. The previous car could be had for $300k or so new, but this car was going for $550k plus another $200k for spare parts. A one-car team really needs to budget $1 million to get its car on the road w/ spare parts. Where would this car come in, who would make it, etc?

Third, yeah, the techie gear head community loves the thing. IndyCar, to be successful, has to have a much much larger audience than that. If the public response had been different, a multi-year commitment to a car that, in the end, people though was "Silly" could've been disastrous.

And God help us all if a driver had been killed in that radical new thing....

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PostPosted: June 18, 2012, 6:21 pm 
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Quote:
Did anyone as old as me notice the Michelin ZX tyres on the front? - nice touch.


I dont think i'm as old as you, but ya noticed that right off the bat. I wonder how it would handle on rock hard Michelins...


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PostPosted: June 18, 2012, 6:58 pm 
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cs3tcr wrote:
I dont think i'm as old as you, but ya noticed that right off the bat. I wonder how it would handle on rock hard Michelins...


Hell, that it turned at all was a wonder to me. I used to ride those "three wheeler" ATV's back in the 70's, and I remember tipping a few times!

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PostPosted: June 18, 2012, 7:06 pm 
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geek49203 wrote:
cs3tcr wrote:
I dont think i'm as old as you, but ya noticed that right off the bat. I wonder how it would handle on rock hard Michelins...


Hell, that it turned at all was a wonder to me. I used to ride those "three wheeler" ATV's back in the 70's, and I remember tipping a few times!


My standard disclaimer applies, "I ain't no engineer!" But... I don't see how two narrow tires, set that close together, could possibly turn in as effectively as two larger (wider, more contact patch) tires set further apart. Seems to me the Delta Wing chassis would oversteer* like mad. It obviously doesn't... I guess...
:cheers:

EDIT
*I meant to say "understeer"... Doh....

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Last edited by GonzoRacer on June 18, 2012, 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: June 18, 2012, 7:36 pm 
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I got to talk w/ the Delta engineers back when it was being proposed at Indy. Damn, love those press credentials! From what I recall:

The theory is that the butt end is firmly planted with the wings and weight and mechanical grip, not to mention the wide stance.

The front end, like an Indy Car, is set to slide before the back end comes around. Cause on an oval, by the time an Indy driver feels oversteer, something expensive is about to happen, and usually can't catch it, and so oversteer is pretty much dialed out (big rear wheels, big rear wing, etc). That "tight" setup would negate the chance of "tipping" or so they told me -- the front end would simply slide.

(I'm still wondering if the car could be "tipped" if it hit something hard mid-turn with the front tires -- ie, hit a pothole or a sudden sticky patch after sliding?)

Now, with this sliding front tire setup, I'd assume they'd need some rock-hard tires up there. The aero on the front end no doubt keeps it planted down more than a street car tho. As I recall, the mock-up that they tried to sell Indy (and sell at Indy) had a narrower front end, so obviously they had to make some concessions after they built it. And it's not like LeMans (or Indy) is composed of tight, twisty low-speed runs, like we'd see in a local parking lot auto cross. BTW, the width of the front track I think is about 30" or so.

Beyond that, as I recall, it's a pure Lotus Eleven / Lola Mk I idea -- low drag, low weight, small engine, lots of fuel economy, etc. Which is a nice contrast to the mega-HP, mega-downforce efforts that suck up the fuel (and, in Detroit, the pavement on the race course).

It was a promising first run I think.

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PostPosted: June 18, 2012, 11:12 pm 
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geek49203 wrote:

Hell, that it turned at all was a wonder to me. I used to ride those "three wheeler" ATV's back in the 70's, and I remember tipping a few times!


Sometimes 3 wheelers get a bad wrap because of some specific vehicles.

geek49203 wrote:


Beyond that, as I recall, it's a pure Lotus Eleven / Lola Mk I idea -- low drag, low weight, small engine, lots of fuel economy, etc. Which is a nice contrast to the mega-HP, mega-downforce efforts that suck up the fuel (and, in Detroit, the pavement on the race course).


But it's allowed to run at 475kgs, the LMP's have to run at 900kgs because that's the rules for them, that's almost double.

GonzoRacer wrote:

EDIT
*I meant to say "understeer"... Doh....


You were right the first time, a 3 wheeler (including the Delta for all intensive purposes) with one wheel at the front oversteers and vice versa.

Notice the oversteer on reliant Robyns for example; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iabcas6Lmq8


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PostPosted: June 19, 2012, 2:25 am 
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Quote:
Notice the oversteer on reliant Robyns


That looks more like overupsidedownsteer, which is different then just regular oversteer.

That video more less explains what I think about three wheeled cars... :shock:

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