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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:36 am 
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cheapracer wrote:
But it's allowed to run at 475kgs, the LMP's have to run at 900kgs because that's the rules for them, that's almost double.


And therein lies the real issue I think. The LeMans / ALMS people have rules that make certain technologies possible, and other technologies uncompetitive -- all to "prove the point" or "make a good show" or "appeal to manufacturers." Or, if you're politically minded, to further a political agenda. Take your pick I guess. AT least they didn't seem to slant the rules to favor the French manufacturers, which was the case in earlier years I hear.

For instance -- I asked the Indy guys years ago, back when diesels took hold in ALMS, about running a diesel at Indy. Wayyyy too heavy I was told, and they suggested that the heavy weight limits (low limit) was needed to make the diesel at all possible.

This year I picked up a whiff of the idea that the rules were set so that conventional gas engines were not competitive, favoring the hybrids and diesels and such.

So returning to the Delta concept -- yeah, if you make that Delta weight what the P1 and/or P2 cars weigh, it wouldn't stand a chance. Or if you let the P1 and P2 cars run 1000 pounds, they'd spend the money and lighten the thing up and run faster.

All of this wouldn't have mattered in IndyCar, where everyone is running the same car, which was the original target.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:44 am 
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geek49203 wrote:
IndyCar, to be successful,

Indycar being sucessful LOLOLOLOLOL
Its more like this: :BH:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:10 pm 
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golftdibrad wrote:
geek49203 wrote:
IndyCar, to be successful,

Indycar being sucessful LOLOLOLOLOL
Its more like this: :BH:


Well, I could say, "IndyCar, to be successful, needs to dump everyone who is whining that this is no longer 1994, which they regard as the best year in humanity, and will tell you so." But then we'd have to dump their best-known journalists.....


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:16 pm 
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geek49203 wrote:
Well, I could say, "IndyCar, to be successful, needs to dump everyone who is whining that this is no longer 1994, which they regard as the best year in humanity, and will tell you so." But then we'd have to dump their best-known journalists.....


Here, I'll fix it.
1. Spec racing sucks.
2. Open wheel cars have ABSOLUTELY no place on asphalt, oval racetracks.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:28 pm 
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golftdibrad wrote:
Here, I'll fix it.
1. Spec racing sucks.
2. Open wheel cars have ABSOLUTELY no place on asphalt, oval racetracks.


Let me educate you:

1. There is not enough money in the world for non-spec racing. IT doesn't exist. Not even F1 has money for non-spec racing now. And as I recall, CART settled into periods of March-Cosworth defacto spec racing. Certainly it can't be done for what the teams currently in IndyCar -- or even NASCAR -- can raise. Going to ALMS races, I don't exactly see a lot of cars in the top ranks -- and those that are there look to me to be bottom-tier at LeMans, if they show at all. IT's a business model thing.

2. Texas proved otherwise. I was there, I talked to the owners and drivers. And the fans seemed to love it. And besides, that little oval called "Indy" is the entire reason why this thing exists -- how did CART and CCWS/CHAMP do when they stayed away from that little oval? Again, it's a business model thing.

3. IF non-spec racing was the key to wildly popular fan frenzied racing, then USAC's sprints, midgets and Silver Crown cars would be playing to 100,000 people in the stands. Ditto for any number of SCCA races. For that matter, the ALMS races I've attended haven't exactly packed 'em in either.

(LeMans is akin to Indy -- both are its own "event", and just because those shows worked out well doesn't mean that the formula or rest of the series is okay).


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Quote:
2. Open wheel cars have ABSOLUTELY no place on asphalt, oval racetracks.


That's just silly.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:38 pm 
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geek49203 wrote:

Let me educate you:

1. There is not enough money in the world for non-spec racing.

2. Texas proved otherwise.

3. IF non-spec racing was .....

I need no education as a life long racing fan.
1. Tell that to F1.
2. yea, 80k people in a place that fits over 130k. you guys are packing them in. I think NASCAR sell that track out twice a year. Hows the TV ratings BTW? Oh yea, in the toliet. Just saying...
3. Seems to be working for ALMS and Lemans.

Remember what made indy great? Oh yea, all the different cars, experimenting, engines, tires, etc. The only reason its a big event anymore is strictly out of habbit.

No one is holding a gun to my head to make me watch the boring ish. I don't. I am not entertained. Just some insight from a racefan, take it as you will. This is just my opinion, not looking to start some forum war.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:52 pm 
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geek49203 wrote:
There is not enough money in the world for non-spec racing. IT doesn't exist.
I respectfully must disagree. Spec racing has it's own place in motorsports, where the focus is desired to simply be on who is the best driver. But in the history of racing, especially at the top levels, the manufacturer has traditionally played just as important a role as the individual drivers...And at the top level, that is where spec racing simply makes a mockery of the sport. Just because essentially spec racing seems to be proliferating through the top levels of motorsports, does not mean that is would have to be that way if people weren't so afraid of change....And I hope I'm not the only one that sees the incredible irony of the Deltawing, for all of its creativity and innovation and regardless of whether it's actually better or not, to have been conceived under the premise of being a spec car which is inherently intended to prevent just such creativity and innovation from occurring within its own series. It's much better served in a series that at least has the potential to incorporate it into a rule set that would allow for other similar such "advancements" from other manufacturers. Notice how much of the money in the LMP cars comes from the manufacturers, rather than simply 'sponsors' marketing their generally unrelated products on spec cars? It's not the Starbucks-Five Guys Burgers and Fries-William Sonoma-Audi R18, it's simply the Audi R18. Thats because there is an actual ROI to their development efforts that is simply not available from spec classes. Change the rules/restrictions to allow them to really learn something new, thus substantially increasing the potential ROI from what they're getting under the current rule structures, and watch them flock to dump more money into it...Even if it still doesn't match the overall popularity and sponsorship money of "spec-bumpercars" in the USA.

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Last edited by Driven5 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:11 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:13 pm 
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I remember watching racing as a kid and loving the battles between the different manufacturers, it was great.

There was diversity and people had favorites with real differences to root for.

I remember when Indy had diversity. Offy engines vs. everyone else (and there were quite a few). I had to leave the big screen live event of Indy the year STP was running the turbine car. I had to leave to go to my High School graduation ceremony just minutes before the car blew a bearing.

The Continental Challenge with all the work arounds to make dissimilar cars similar is way more enjoying to watch than LMPs, Indy Cars or, the worst, Nascar.

If there's no way to have any race series except a spec series just cancel them all now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Hate to keep bursting bubbles.

Since the mid 70's in F1, and the late 70's here in the USA, racing has shifted from a focus on technology and skill to being focused on entertainment paid for by advertising money. That is the opinion of the best auto racing historians I've met, and although I hated it when I heard it, I can't disagree with them. Bottom line is that those cars in major motor sports events are more like individual radio stations than they are like little R&D labs, and the drivers more like DJ's than they are Olympic athletes.

Gotta hand it to Bernie, he's kept that whole "cutting edge technology" story going longer, but I can point to at least a dozen major decisions in the last 20 years where technology was stopped -- sometimes for safety, but usually for budgetary reasons. Indeed, the current engine spec is years old, and even then it is based largely on the spec before it. The reason is that the sponsor dollars, in the face of a world-wide economic malaise (and some would suggest coming recession) are dwindling -- and it's a subject of discussion of whether the auto manufacturers involved in F1 (or NASCAR, ALMS or Indy) do their sponsorship for R&D versus advertising.

Here in the USA, first CART (in that 1978 White Paper) and then NASCAR showed everyone how to make good money on that "entertainment" model. However, by 1995 CART had significant issues, (TG might've been nuts, but there were issues at that time) and it would've had to make some hard decisions even if the IRL had never been formed. (In fact, it was unbridled competition between engine manufacturers that lead to the 2001 meltdown in CART, remember?)

NASCAR came along with slower, cheaper, less technologically sophisticated cars, run by a competent dictatorship, and laid the wood to everyone. Not only did they suck the wind out of the Indy scene, they also sucked it out of the F1 scene here -- if you hear the IMS people tell the story, the F1 race at Indy was paid for by NASCAR revenues. Certainly the lone American F1 race had only 100,000 fans when both Indy and NASCAR were pulling 240,000 or so at the same venue. (Which should address a previous zinger?).

Anyway, as much as we'd like to believe otherwise, and somehow believe in an era back in the 80's or so when things were supposed to be different, the truth is that big-time motor sports, including F1, is about entertainment and ad money much more than it is about competition and technology and development budgets.

AS for ALMS -- in the two ALMS events that I've attended in the past year, I saw some older stuff in P1 and P2, and a considerable effort in the Patron team as well as the Corvette team, and beyond that... pretty slim pickings. Quite frankly, I've enjoyed the lower-end sports car racing that usually goes with those series more than the ALMS race itself.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:34 pm 
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geek49203 wrote:
Hate to keep bursting bubbles.

Since the mid 70's in F1, and the late 70's here in the USA, racing has shifted from a focus on technology and skill to being focused on entertainment paid for by advertising money.


Your not bursting anything. The above statement is true. People like F1 and proto cars because while there is a 'spec' there is lots of room to intrepert it. Formula one...follows a formula. They have the same wheelbase width, CID, but can go nuts on suspension stuf (but not active...grrrr) and aerodynamics.

And thats why i think racing sucks more now, spec BS. With all the concern over the environment, unfounded or not, there is a massive opportunity for manufactures to use racing as a test bed for technology to be used in road cars. You know, like they used too. And that would entice them to stick around a bit longer. LeMans and to a lesser extent F1 heard the call. Indy didn't (ethanol does not count, sorry).

re: Nascar's kicking but and taking names. I dont think It has anything to do with any of the above. Watching a NASCAR race live is one of the coolest racing events you can do, but on TV its BORING. Now road racing.....sucks in person but is AWESOME on the tube.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:01 pm 
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golftdibrad wrote:
Watching a NASCAR FANS live is one of the coolest racing events you can do, but on TV its BORING.



Fixed that for you cause watching a Nascar race is worse than watching paint dry or being duct taped into your recliner with your eyes super glued open and being made to watch Golf.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Top tier racing today is not meant for the racing fan. The people attending a top race aren't even going to a race. They're going to an EVENT. Most of these people know very little about racing. Years ago, many people attending were racing fans. Some people liked stock cars, some liked Indy cars and some liked sports cars, etc. Now, people at a NASCAR race are not really stock car fans, rather they are NASCAR fans. They wouldn't be caught dead watching a ASA or other sanctioning body stock car race, and they wouldn't go to a local race and watch some unknown drivers compete. Races today are basically T.V. shows.


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