LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently July 22, 2017, 2:51 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3446 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221 ... 230  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: December 26, 2016, 12:55 am 
Offline
We are Slotus!
User avatar

Joined: October 6, 2009, 9:29 am
Posts: 6621
Location: Tallahassee, FL (The Center of the Known Universe)
BHRmotorsport wrote:
Good save guys. Without the xmas trees tipping over, page 217 of the Slotus story was headed to be 100% unadulterated car stuff. Luckily you got it back off track!

Merry Xmas from "Winterpeg" where we are currently having a blizzard.
Hi Bill! Fixed that typo for ya...
Stay warm (and safe) in the snow, Buddy! Or come see us in Tallahassee, where we've been running the A/C and wearing shorts.
:cheers:
JDK

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: December 26, 2016, 1:05 am 
Offline
We are Slotus!
User avatar

Joined: October 6, 2009, 9:29 am
Posts: 6621
Location: Tallahassee, FL (The Center of the Known Universe)
horizenjob wrote:
Our Christmas Tree fell over by itself today. Whereupon TWWTFM immediately burst into tears - catching me by surprise so I said "why are you crying". Near as I can tell this broke several layers of social norms and I received a look.

THe fact that I had remarked some hours earlier "look the treee is leaning" doesn't seem to have helped me.
Hi Marcus! Sure sounds like you're having a "Very Slotus Christmas" too. And I wouldn't wish that on anybody... :ack:

Ahhh... Crying wimmen... I'm pretty sure that when a woman is crying about something, ANYTHING you say will be wrong. Either hug her or run to the jewelry store, depending on your innate level of guilt at the time. Those actions will still be wrong but if you A) Are hugging her, she will have trouble reaching for a firearm, knife or blunt instrument. Or B) Run off to the jewelry store, then you should be safe until you get back. Maybe... :mrgreen:

Hope things are smoothed out now. If not, the door is always open to ya here. We might both wind up sleeping in the shop, but the door will be open... :mrgreen:

:cheers:
JDK

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: December 27, 2016, 6:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 19, 2011, 10:22 am
Posts: 906
Location: Holden, Alberta, Canada
:lol:
Wifey and I were walkin' the beach in Barbados and come across Gonzo layin upside down on the sand. I wouldn't have expected anything less.
Attachment:
gonzo.jpg
gonzo.jpg [ 123.73 KiB | Viewed 706 times ]


Bubba was nowhere to be seen............................musta been feeding time

Cheers! All best to you and yours :cheers:
Attachment:
cheers.jpg
cheers.jpg [ 67.44 KiB | Viewed 705 times ]

_________________
Perry

2 down, 2 to go, no 3 to go

'If man built it, man can fix it'

"No one ever told me I couldn't do it."

http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12234

http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14030


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: December 27, 2016, 8:11 pm 
Offline
We are Slotus!
User avatar

Joined: October 6, 2009, 9:29 am
Posts: 6621
Location: Tallahassee, FL (The Center of the Known Universe)
Quote:
Wifey and I were walkin' the beach in Barbados and come across Gonzo layin upside down on the sand. I wouldn't have expected anything less.
Given the way I get sunburnt, that boat is about the right color for me in the morning of the first day. After that, I'm usually bright red...

Looks like y'all are having a great time! Enjoy!

:cheers:
JDK

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 1, 2017, 9:37 am 
Offline
We are Slotus!
User avatar

Joined: October 6, 2009, 9:29 am
Posts: 6621
Location: Tallahassee, FL (The Center of the Known Universe)
Happy 2017, Y'all!!!

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 9, 2017, 11:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: November 7, 2008, 4:48 am
Posts: 1094
Location: snow city - it's wet!
And happy 2017 to you. Just a few thoughts now that you have moved into the era of modern fuel injection:

Get a wideband set-up. Tuning without a wideband is just guessing .. with potentially very expensive consequences.
You may need to invest in re-flash software for your ECU/PCM to do your own tuning.
These things will require a bit of spending.

The alternative to buying your own tools is to pay a good tuner with a dyno that has the right software to tune your PCM. He should have all the tools and software needed to get your car dialed in with a decent tune. It will be less than buying your own software and widebands, but over the life of your car, particularly if you plan to make additional changes that could change the car's air to fuel ratios, then having your own tools might be more economical.

New tools will also mean more learning, and the possibility of making potentially expensive mistakes with them. I started tuning by buying the needed tools, doing my own tuning when I changed things, and then having a professional tuner I know check my work and fix things on his dyno. Not the cheapest way to learn to tune, but no engines have been blown due to tuning errors (*); at least so far .. knock on aluminum.

Unless you are building an engine with forced induction or making more than two (or possibly even three) times the power of the engine the PCM was designed to manage, it is probably best to avoid a stand alone and simply reflash the factory PCM. This will likely give you the best balance of reliability, performance and overall driveability.

Also I would not waste time and money on a piggy-back. They try to fool the PCM into thinking the engine is performing differently than it is, and then the PCM almost always eventually tries to automatically adjust for the changes the piggyback is making. You can unplug the PCM to reset it and flush those learned tables, but that puts the piggyback owner in a situation where they always need to unplug the PCM for max power, and then they are always starting with a base PCM tune plus the piggy back. That can also hurt long term performance by resetting the other learning that a PCM will do to try and adjust for things like fuel quality, air quality, temperature, long and short term fuel trims, etc.

My opinions are based on my experiences with some Japanese and and modern GM LSx based PCMs. I am not sure all of this is 100% accurate for a Ford PCM.

Glad to hear you have kept moving forward. Hopefully I will find a bit of time to check in more often.

(*) I have lost an engine due to a bad lifter, it collapsed and let the rocker on a Evo engine escape into the wider cam carrier of the head. It jammed against a cam and locked it up. That locked up the oil pump, and also stripped the timing belt which caused all other manner of mayhem. I was lucky in that the car was coasting and the engine unloaded when it failed, things could have been much worse.

_________________
.. in the world


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 10, 2017, 11:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 24, 2008, 2:13 pm
Posts: 3036
Location: Carlsbad, California, USA
@erioshi

Could you give a little more information about what you mean by "wideband setup?"

I haven't gotten to the installation of my donor ('94 Mustang) ECU yet in my build yet. However, I'm curious as to who does the re-flash you are speaking of. It looks like the "piggy back" approach is very popular among Mustang drag racers, if we're speaking of inserting a new card into the ECU that permits that inserted card, or a computer attached to it, to take control of the ECU.

I'm at the baby stages of learning about these ECUs and the EFI systems they control. One of the things that remains unanswered for me is what the ECU does with devices that are not present. For example, some ECUs look at the demand of the power steering system and increase engine RPMs at parking lot (maneuvering) speeds to prevent the engine from bogging down or stalling. What happens in the ECU when you delete the power steering as we're doing in our Locosts? Do you know?

Cheers,

_________________
Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 11, 2017, 9:30 am 
Offline
We are Slotus!
User avatar

Joined: October 6, 2009, 9:29 am
Posts: 6621
Location: Tallahassee, FL (The Center of the Known Universe)
Yo! Erioshi! Ain't this a blast from the past! Good to hear from you!

Yeah, I've moved from voodoo and black magic (SU Carbs) into the real occult world of EFI and engine management computers... "Abandon hope, all ye who enter herein."
Lonnie-S wrote:
Could you give a little more information about what you mean by "wideband setup?"
I'm with Lonnie... What you talkin' 'bout?

I'm hoping to get the thing running at least CLOSE to correctly using the Ford PCM and then take it to a tuner with a dyno. I'm kind of "accidentally" on the path you talk about. I'm sticking with the factory PCM for the time being because I don't want to change too many things at once and because I'm cheap!

A friend of mine has a piggy-back setup he's happy with in a 302 Mustang, but I don't think I want to go that way... Yet... Maybe not at all. It seemed more complex than just replacing the PCM, and more of a "band-aid" kind of thing. (He says, not knowing diddly about them, really...)

A re-flash of the factory PCM sounds like the simplest, most straight-forward thing, but I'll get the damn thing running first and see where it goes from there. In the meantime, tell us more about "wide-band" stuff...

And, other'n that, tell us more about what ya been up to in general???

:cheers:
JD "Lawsy, Miss Scarlett, I don' know nuthin 'bout tunin no PCMs" Kemp

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 11, 2017, 11:16 am 
Offline

Joined: December 20, 2011, 10:19 pm
Posts: 198
The wide and hardware Eros hi is referring to are Oxygen Sensors, and potentially displays to provide information to the user.

Normal O2 sensors (like the ones in your EFI Ford right now) have a very narrow band where they are effective (usually right around 14.7 : 1 air fuel ratio.) This is useful for closed loop tuning (by the ECM) of cruising conditions, but not useful for WOT, which is usually in a AF range of 11 to 13 to 1 (outside of what the sensor can see).

Wideband sensors can see a much bigger window of A F tatios. Probably from 7 or 8 to 1 all the way to 20 to 1. Meating you can run WOT and get useful data on what is going on in the engine (too rich, perfect, a little too lean, way too lean, etc). Most of these sensors don't work in the place of normal narrowband O2 sensors.

Some aftermarket EFI computers use widebands instead of the narrow ones. But for most factory based EFI systems, you typically end up adding wide bands with some kind of display, so the driver can see what the engine is doing and make alterations to the open loop portion of the tuning (WOT). Often the display is color coded, so you know if you see red, lift, just like if you lost oil pressure.

Hope that helps a bit.

JustDreamin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 11, 2017, 11:31 am 
Offline
Toyotaphobe
User avatar

Joined: April 5, 2008, 2:25 am
Posts: 4444
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
I've got one you can borrow JD

_________________
mobilito ergo sum
I drive therefore I am

I can explain it to you,
but I can't understand it for you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 11, 2017, 1:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: December 20, 2011, 10:19 pm
Posts: 198
Just went and re-read my post. Got to love auto-in-correct. OR something. I know I typed Erioshi's name properly, not as "Eros hi".

Hope it's readable enough, since I can no longer edit it....

JustDreamin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 17, 2017, 12:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: November 7, 2008, 4:48 am
Posts: 1094
Location: snow city - it's wet!
Hi again, and sorry I have been away for so long. Life gets busy and then sometimes the hobbies have to wait; that kind of sums up where I have been the last few years. I still have the toy car projects (the Lotus, a couple of Porches, and a race car) but they have been mostly on hold. Some forward progress on one Porsche and the race car (also a Porsche - originally a parts car), but that has mostly consisted of light work and parts gathering.

JustDreamin nailed the wideband thing, it is just a wideband oxygen sensor set-up with one or two oxygen sensors. The values from the wideband are the foundation for getting your air/fuel ratios correct. It is probably worth mentioning that a system that uses VW style wideband O2 sensors is probably going to offer the best long-term value. VW sensors are relatively cheap, as VW uses these wideband sensors on production cars.

My piggy-back versus reflash opinions come largely from tuning my Evo, although the experiences I have had with LS based GM PCMs has matched that experience. Also this information applies mostly to OBD2 PCMs. I have not worked with enough OBD1 PCMs to offer any strong opinions.

First, let me say piggy-backs are not inherently bad, but they work by trying to trick the PCM. Unless the piggy-back can intercept the factory O2 sensor values, or the factory O2 sensor is disabled, then any air-fuel ratio changes made by the piggy-back are likely to be undone over time by the factory PCM's internal software. The same is true of timing adjustments. While a high quality piggy-back can be tuned in such a way that it might be able to evade a PCM's auto-corrections, in practice what I have seen is that usually the PCM adjusts to the piggy-back's changes over time and takes away the boost in performance.

What follows is a really simplified version of what is going on inside an OBD2 PCM; I know I am skipping over a bunch of information, please forgive me. I am intentionally ignoring correction factors for temperature, altitude, etc. If any of what I offer here needs to be adjusted for the planned use being discussed, please let us know.

Let's start with air/fuel ratio tuning. Modern ECU/PCMs keep track of a number of internal values including things like short, medium and long term fuel trim values, and some factor for engine knock events. For fuel trims, the PCM will read the voltages being returned by the O2 senor(s), and compare that to an expected value. If the current value is higher or lower then the expected value, then the PCM's software will start adding or subtracting modification values to the various fuel trims until the car is consistently running with the expected O2 sensor voltages. In addition to this there will also be target air-fuel ratio values contained in a set of tables based on engine RPM and engine load. The load value typically is some mix of throttle position and a reading from a mass airflow sensor (MAF). Most PCMs have several tables. One of the tables usually is the "ideal" set of values that the PCM will use if everything is working perfectly. The PCM will also have other tables that include a "failsafe" set of values that should let the car run in limp mode to get home but not burn up the engine. The PCM takes the values from the fuel trims, injector size tables (and injector curves), altitude, air temperature, engine temperature, engine knock counts, etc. and comes up with a correction factor that it uses to figure out which table to use as a reference, and then how much to adjust the values from that table to calculate the actual fuel amount delivered. It then uses the feedback from the O2 sensor(s) to make further adjustments to the fuel trims.

All of this means that "tuning" the air/fuel ratio of an OBD2 PCM car ends up requiring a combination of changes. The first step is usually to dial in the scaling values, voltage and "curve" of the fuel injectors so that the engine can run with almost no adjustment to the fuel trims. Typically about 2% is considered acceptable, but with practice the injectors can frequently be dialed in to a correction of less than .5%, but getting the trims that accurate takes time and some trial and error. Once the injectors are dialed in, then the "ideal" fuel table is usually optimized for maximum performance. After that tuning may turn to the "ideal" timing table to get that optimized. Going back and forth between timing and fuel is common when trying to reach peak performance. Once the "ideal" fuel and timing is dialed in, then it may be desirable to make changes to the other timing and fueling tables (bringing them closer to the "ideal" tables) to help keep the car from losing power over time as the PCM applies self correction logic and other adjustments. Tuning timing is much like the air/fuel tuning above, but usually done after "safe" air/fuel ratios have been dialed in, with perhaps some extra fuel to help prevent engine knock under high engine loads.

The big limitation of most piggy-backs, is that they can only control the intercept values, and not the basic tables themselves, or the long term correction factors that the PCM stores. This can limit how much correction they can apply, and many times a PCM can just dial out all of the piggy-back's performance improvement over time. Resetting the PCM by unplugging it clears the long term correction factors, but also clears the "learned" adjustments for altitude, fuel quality, knock correction, injector trims, etc. While they do work, I have found re-flashing the PCM to be a better long-term solution.

I am not sure what software to use with a Ford PCM. With my Evo I used a combination of Evoscan for data logging and monitoring ODB2 data and ECUflash for building and modifying the tuning data being flashed into the ECU. This required a laptop and cable that could be plugged into the OBD2 port when I wanted to upload a new tune or do data logging. For LSx based engines HP Tuners software seems to be a reasonable option. Not cheap, but no more unreasonable than any other quality go-fast part. There are other options, but I personally do not want to venture too far from the benefits that come with being able to run factory developed ECU software.

I think a stand alone is a great option if the car is very purpose-built, but most of the people who I know that use them tend to spend more time tuning than I am willing to commit. And I probably spent almost 100 hours tuning my Evo to get things just right. But that car ran on e85 with up to 32 lbs of boot, and had a lot of engine work. Cams, head work, oversized valves and porting, intake system and exhaust modifications, upgraded fuel pump, customized ECU code for map switching (e85 and a "failsafe" 87 octane gasoline tune), etc. Quite far from OEM but it still started and ran like stock from -40 f to 110 f and everywhere in between .. without any codes, odd behavior or check engine lights.

And why am I talking abut GM LSx engines and PCMs while the current projects are both Porsche? Well, it is much more economical to add power with (and possibly blow up) a GM LSx engine on a race track than a Porsche engine .. especially if you are starting with an older water cooled Porsche (or two) that needs an engine.

I hope all of that helps!

_________________
.. in the world


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 21, 2017, 9:02 am 
Offline
We are Slotus!
User avatar

Joined: October 6, 2009, 9:29 am
Posts: 6621
Location: Tallahassee, FL (The Center of the Known Universe)
Yo, Erioshi (Or Ero Shy, or whatever...)!
Great write-up, Sir! Thank you!

I'm still reading/studying it all and discussing with James, our tame Ford mechanic. We might look at a wideband set-up for tuning, but likely not right now unless one falls into my lap. I think for the time being we're going with the stock PCM, maybe do some dyno testing at some point (once we get the damn thing running good enough to test it!) and down the road (waaaaay down the road) go for a stand-alone unit. I'm kinda wanting to try one of Marcus' Sparkticus units when he gets them going or a Megasquirt.

Stay tuned, see what happens next! That's not a "teaser" line, because I don't know what's gonna happen next either...

:cheers:
JDK

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 23, 2017, 2:54 pm 
Offline
We are Slotus!
User avatar

Joined: October 6, 2009, 9:29 am
Posts: 6621
Location: Tallahassee, FL (The Center of the Known Universe)
Yo! Slotus fans! All two-both-five of you!

In between working, going with TWWTFM to buy new furniture, playing with grand-daughter Bacon Bit and generally being a slacker... I put the 19 lb/hr injectors back in the car. I managed to tear up an O-ring and cause #5 injector to pee gasoline all over the front of the engine. After replacing the O-rings on that bank of injectors, the old beastie fired up and ran. Sounded purty good doin' it too. I turned the fuel pressure up a bit from stock, thinking that would be a bit of compensation for the increased displacement. Made me feel better, any-hoo...

The ol' mill ran, sounded good, didn't seem to smell like it was too rich (no canaries were harmed...) and had good oil pressure and fuel pressure and etc. Sooo... After a brief discussion with Earl about possible penalties for running over a guinea hen or a possum and the legalities of getting caught by "Th' Law" with no lights, signals, windshield, front fenders, tags, insurance, or common sense, I took the Slotus for a drive up and down the road in front of the house.

Made about 5 passes, not very fast but using 1st and 2nd gear so as to rev the engine and once going from 1st to 3rd and flooring it for a second. I can report that it seems to be OK... And that I didn't get arrested. And that all six of my neighbors guineas are alive and well this morning. And that going WOT in 3rd at about 15 mph will induce wild wheelspin and fishtailing on wet pavement... Heehee... :twisted:

We are supposed to have an autocross Sunday. I'm planning to go. However, that area (Adel GA) had some really bad storms last night. Houses were flattened, people died. Real bad storms. There was some damage to the track where we race, and I'm not sure how that might affect the event. I'll let y'all know when I find out.

Other'n that, thanks for listenin'... Come back to see us!

Peace, Love and "Don't Hit The Wildlife"-
JDK

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: January 25, 2017, 11:04 pm 
Offline
We are Slotus!
User avatar

Joined: October 6, 2009, 9:29 am
Posts: 6621
Location: Tallahassee, FL (The Center of the Known Universe)
Message went out from one of the Solo2 chairmen that we're "On" for Sunday in Adel.

Hide and watch... :twisted:

JDK

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3446 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221 ... 230  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
POWERED_BY