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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: January 13, 2020, 9:40 pm 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
I understand. I used to weld like that. I think everyone that welds has at one point.
You could use thinner material for flanges, such as 1/8-3/16 then bend it in a 5 inch or larger vice. The flanges need to flex a little to close the gap to the inner sleeve. The thinner material is easier to weld and closer to the wall thickness of the rail tube.
I think the ucaps will be far enough out that you will be able to fit a horizontal 1x2 between the U flanges and the existing frame rails but it is a little early for that. Do you have your measurements yet to plug into vsusp? Five inch ground clearance to the frame is typical. Lca is usually around 15 inches, the lcaps usually above the rail and the aft lcap inboard of the rail.
The cross shaft uca is easier to fit and adjust but requires a thick flange to be welded on to the frame.
You should consider a handheld band saw with a 14tp blade for all this metal work. Cuts quick like butter and without the noise, sparks, and dust of a grinder.


I disassembled the driver's side today. The LCA will be able to stay in its position as built. The UCA attach points will need to lower almost 3 1/2"! I plan on welding in some reinforcement to the frame where they will mount. Thinking I have some 1 1/2" angle iron that I am thinking will be nice to place vertically down the frame rails. Tomorrow I will actually measure the swing arm length and get a location for the new UCA mount points. I know it should be between 100"-140". Figure about 125" will give me a 7 degree down angle on the UCA.

Also discovered the steering rack is sitting at a "swept back" angle. SO I will try and reverse the mounting of the rack from the front of the mount plate to behind it. The rack will then line up perfectly! But i will have to order a set of offset bushings to move the rack to the passenger's side to clear the frame rail on the driver's side at the steering shaft bulge.

Steve, I have been using a saws-all to do my cutting. Have used one for years and can almost "ice sculpt" with it!

Thanks for the defense Jack, but I should have noticed sooner. Was so excited with my "prize" that I was not looking close enough to all the details.

More to come!

Thom


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PostPosted: January 14, 2020, 9:09 pm 
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SO today I set up a series of levels, clamps and lasers to see where I would end up with the suspension. It is turning out better than I expected! The LCA can stay in place. The UCA will need new mount locations 3 1/2" lower than previously constructed. And the Mustang II rack will need to move back 2 1/4". I used a laser level to transfer the LCA position against the far wall and marked it. I then leveled the upright, front to back & vertical. I then used a tape measure at the top center of the top ball joint and measured the intersecting distance on the wall with a 7 degree down tilt of the UCA. It crosses at 125", per Herb Adams "Chassis Engineering" book, that should be right on the mark (between 100" -140"). The ball joints line up at this time.

MV8- the LCA center swing arm length is 12 3/4", the UCA center swing arm length is 10 1/2". The frame height is 6" above the ground. All of the caster/camber can be adjusted by the UCA with its adjustable rod ends.

Attachment:
IMG_0789.JPG
IMG_0789.JPG [ 962.67 KiB | Viewed 819 times ]


Anything I have missed?

Thom


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PostPosted: January 14, 2020, 10:32 pm 
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That looks way better. It’s great when you step back and get it all in your head. Awesome!

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PostPosted: January 15, 2020, 9:36 pm 
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Now that I have the Control Arms geometry worked out, I started to review the steering rack settings. The rack is too far forward and high. As you can see by the photo, if I were to connect the tie rod, it would be at an"down angle" and sweeping back to connect to the Spindle.
Attachment:
File comment: Tie rod and rack alignment
IMG_0791.JPG
IMG_0791.JPG [ 901.53 KiB | Viewed 772 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Mustang II rack mount
IMG_0792.JPG
IMG_0792.JPG [ 905.29 KiB | Viewed 772 times ]


I am also concerned about the tie rod hitting the LCA when the wheel is cranked full right and the suspension is compressed. But I can add a limiter to the travel of the steering rack to stop it at the extreme.

I have two options:
1. I cut the rack loose and modify the rails so I can move the rack back 2" and down 2 1/4". It will require redesigning the entire frame forward of the LCA mount.

2. Wilwood makes a Mustang II spindle that has a reversible ( top to bottom) tie rod end that would allow me to keep the rack in its current location, but it would require me to replace the brake calipers and associated items at a cost of $1000.

Love to hear suggestions.

Thom


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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 4:39 am 
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Thom,

I didn't look at this quite close enough and mounted my rack a touch too far forward. My tie rods are slightly swept to the rear resulting in some reverse Ackerman. It's a little strange feeling but not undrivable. But it is something I have planned to correct when I correct the lack of caster.

Keep at it. It's shaping up.

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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 6:10 am 
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In Herb Adams book, he was building for 8 inches of travel and wanted to ensure the SA would not get shorter than 30 inches in that travel. With less travel and roll, you can have a much better camber curve by going to an SA less than 100 inches. For his build, he said 13 inch lca is the practical minimum and used a 7 inch uca. It all makes a difference. If you take the measurements, I'd be happy to plug it into vsusp for you to see what the difference is. If it is a big difference, we can figure out ways to improve it that is the least amount of fabrication.

On the spindles, a taper reamer is used to make a taper on the opposite side of the original taper. The reamers are usually about $80 and come in a couple different tapers. The result is the oem tie rod but reduced contact area at the taper to hold the ball as the suspension moves. If the ball slips, the taper will wear out. The depth of the new taper will determine the height of the ball.

Another option is to use a common drill and entirely remove the taper to fit a standard, high grade bolt, washers, and a spherical with thick walled spacers to set/fine tune the ball height. You can fit sealing washers to hep keep dirt out of the joint so it will last longer.

Figure out if the rack can be placed as needed for your final SA before deciding on how to mod the spindles.

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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 6:32 am 
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Larry, thanks. Beginning to think I am going down the rabbit hole here!

MV8- you are always the best of support! I had thought about reaming the upright to allow the taper to 73 mate, but was worried as to how much strength I would be giving up. However, the car is so much lighter that I think it would not be the end of the world. I could, as you suggested, straight bore it out and convert over to a Heim joint. I had put heim jointed/spherical tie rods on my Porsche 911. Made for smooth movement.

If I reduce it to about 100" I will get closer to another frame tube which would be better to set up the new UCA mounts. Tell me which measurements you need and I will give those to you so you can run the program. That would place (I'm guessing) the UCA at someting better then a 10 degree down angle. Somehow it would look better to my eye as "normal".


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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 6:53 am 
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Stepping away from the suspension for a moment, I found a heater box from a "Lotus" 7 on ebay. It even has the "7" imprinted into the ABS housing! Its rather simple, 2 speed fan, outside air intake on the top, 2 discharge on the bottom and 2 additional, adjustable eye vents on the front that can be opened and closed. My wife is always cold, so I thought this would help a little with the chill that can come from open motoring.
Attachment:
Lotus 7 Heater box.jpg
Lotus 7 Heater box.jpg [ 256.68 KiB | Viewed 754 times ]

Attachment:
Lotus 7 Heater box 3.jpg
Lotus 7 Heater box 3.jpg [ 234.65 KiB | Viewed 754 times ]

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Attachment:
Lotus 7 Heater box 2.jpg
Lotus 7 Heater box 2.jpg [ 254.31 KiB | Viewed 754 times ]


Where it is sitting in the car is exactly where I planned to install the upper fire wall. I will place a vertical sheet on both sides of the heater with the opening accepting the side with the eyeball vents to allow it to penetrate under the dash.
Attachment:
Heater rough in.png
Heater rough in.png [ 384.41 KiB | Viewed 754 times ]


I will construct a box under the heater, over the trans/bell housing that will dump into the foot wells. I will locate a couple of dash vent controls that would allow me to reach down and open/close the flow of air. And the two eyeball vents will be up under the dash.

I'll also add some alum boxing up to the bonnet to draw fresh air into the heater. I will look at a screen in the top of the bonnet.

The water valve will relocate to the stock MGB location on the passenger's side of the motor.

Thom


Last edited by BostonWill on January 16, 2020, 7:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 6:59 am 
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I have decided to use aluminium sheet attached to the bottom of the car by blind pop rivets. I have
FABORY Blind Rivets, 1/8inx0.360in. That way they are sealed when I install them. I went with this size since I am attaching to round tubing for the frame.

My question is, what grade and gauge has everyone been using for the floor? And what grade/gauge for the body work? I want to place an order soon and would like to order it all at once to reduce the shipping costs.

Thom


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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 7:08 am 
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I used 090 on my floor. I don’t know the grade. Probably 3003. It’s been fine. I have bottomed out a couple times too on a dips in the road. Speed was a factor.

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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 7:16 am 
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Thanks Steve! You're up early! We still have a home back in Lake Geneva, WI. My wife is from the Appleton area originally and we are back there regularly to visit the family.

Thom


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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 8:10 am 
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Hi Thom-
The aluminum sheet I used for the floor of my car was painted white and had big blue letters on it that said "Tallahassee Ford Body Shop" and another that said "Service Department." I don't know the thickness, but the grade was probably "stolen from the dumpster"... :mrgreen:

:cheers:
JDK

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Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 8:50 am 
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BostonWill wrote:
Larry, thanks. Beginning to think I am going down the rabbit hole here!

MV8- you are always the best of support! I had thought about reaming the upright to allow the taper to 73 mate, but was worried as to how much strength I would be giving up. However, the car is so much lighter that I think it would not be the end of the world. I could, as you suggested, straight bore it out and convert over to a Heim joint. I had put heim jointed/spherical tie rods on my Porsche 911. Made for smooth movement.

If I reduce it to about 100" I will get closer to another frame tube which would be better to set up the new UCA mounts. Tell me which measurements you need and I will give those to you so you can run the program. That would place (I'm guessing) the UCA at someting better then a 10 degree down angle. Somehow it would look better to my eye as "normal".


Need most or all of the following:

*Current track width (tire center to tire center) front and rear.
*Wheels should be marked for offset or back space and width or you can check the backspace and provide the width.
*Tire size.
*UBJ center to wheel mounting surface (wms) and height from spindle center.
*Same for the LBJ.
*Desired outer tierod ball location horizontally from wms and vertically from spindle center.
A carpenter square is perfect for this. Place the long leg on the rotor face just aft of the spindle and sight across from the front. On the horizontal short leg, measure down to the ubj cl to subtract from the indication at the spindle. It is a little awkward but getting it within .10” would be better than not checking. Another builder has the following dims but they may not be exact. Compare to what you find:
Hub face (wms) to ubj (x= horizontal) 6.299”
Spindle center to ubj (y= vertical) 6.693”
Wms to lbj 4.724”
Spindle to lbj 3.543”
Wms to steering arm hole or ball 4.134”
*Steering rack width, inner tierod ball center to inner tierod ball center. Ideally, the inners fall on the line between the lcap and ucap but location of the rack and outer tierod can be tweaked to minimize bumpsteer for a narrower range of motion.
*Steering rack ball height.
*Is the lcap center .75” from the bottom of the frame?
LCA is 12.75, UCA is 10.5, GC is 6.

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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 9:14 am 
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GonzoRacer wrote:
Hi Thom-
The aluminum sheet I used for the floor of my car was painted white and had big blue letters on it that said "Tallahassee Ford Body Shop" and another that said "Service Department." I don't know the thickness, but the grade was probably "stolen from the dumpster"... :mrgreen:

:cheers:
JDK


My kind of guy! Bet if you sold cars- you would offer a 30/30 guarantee, 30 ft or 30 seconds off the lot, whichever comes first! LOL!

Thom


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PostPosted: January 16, 2020, 9:14 am 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
BostonWill wrote:
Larry, thanks. Beginning to think I am going down the rabbit hole here!

MV8- you are always the best of support! I had thought about reaming the upright to allow the taper to 73 mate, but was worried as to how much strength I would be giving up. However, the car is so much lighter that I think it would not be the end of the world. I could, as you suggested, straight bore it out and convert over to a Heim joint. I had put heim jointed/spherical tie rods on my Porsche 911. Made for smooth movement.

If I reduce it to about 100" I will get closer to another frame tube which would be better to set up the new UCA mounts. Tell me which measurements you need and I will give those to you so you can run the program. That would place (I'm guessing) the UCA at someting better then a 10 degree down angle. Somehow it would look better to my eye as "normal".


Need most or all of the following:

*Current track width (tire center to tire center) front and rear.
*Wheels should be marked for offset or back space and width or you can check the backspace and provide the width.
*Tire size.
*UBJ center to wheel mounting surface (wms) and height from spindle center.
*Same for the LBJ.
*Desired outer tierod ball location horizontally from wms and vertically from spindle center.
A carpenter square is perfect for this. Place the long leg on the rotor face just aft of the spindle and sight across from the front. On the horizontal short leg, measure down to the ubj cl to subtract from the indication at the spindle. It is a little awkward but getting it within .10” would be better than not checking. Another builder has the following dims but they may not be exact. Compare to what you find:
Hub face (wms) to ubj (x= horizontal) 6.299”
Spindle center to ubj (y= vertical) 6.693”
Wms to lbj 4.724”
Spindle to lbj 3.543”
Wms to steering arm hole or ball 4.134”
*Steering rack width, inner tierod ball center to inner tierod ball center. Ideally, the inners fall on the line between the lcap and ucap but location of the rack and outer tierod can be tweaked to minimize bumpsteer for a narrower range of motion.
*Steering rack ball height.
*Is the lcap center .75” from the bottom of the frame?
LCA is 12.75, UCA is 10.5, GC is 6.


Will work on that today! Thanks
Thom


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