LocostUSA.com

Hi All,
I've been lurking for a while, have made a couple of post's and done alot of reading and research. I want to say thanks in advance to all that have taken the time to share what they have learned in their journey.
I am in the very early planning stages in our build. I have a very sweet, ready to run 2.0 Duratec but have decided to go with my other engine. It is a 5.0 HO pulled from a 91 Cougar with a T5 from a Mustang. The rear axle that I have is kinda unusual , It's an independant suspension assembly from a 1996 Infinity Q45. It has 3.54 gears, LSD and disc brakes. I am concidering using it as an assembly, just changing the design of the frame behind the seats to allow this to happen. This axle is 65 inches from WMS to WMS........
I would like to widen up the frame a little to give my 12D feet a little room. I recently converted my 77 MGB to a V8 with an automatic trans. A T5 would have been more fun but my big feet would catch the clutch and brake at the same time occasionally.
I'm thinking of using 1.25 tube for extra support for the heavy motor. I have some 1" 11 gauge laying around that I could use too.
I have a couple of questions..........not sure if I sould post them here or in the appropriate forum for the subject so I'll start by posting them here.

1. Is the 65" WMS to WMS rear axle too wide?

2. Does it make sense or would it cause problems that I'm not thinking about, if I widdened the chassis by a couple of inches from the firewall to the rear of the frame? This may also make the wide rear axle work better too......

3. How wide should the track on the front wheels be with a 65" rear axle? Would this make my control arms too long??????

Thanx in advance for the help!!!!!

Hi Steve, and welcome to the forum.

My build used a 5 Liter Ford HO and a T5. It's a good combination for one of these cars, if you don't want to do the traditional 4-banger. Nuthin' wrong with a 4, but... Well, you know. Love that V8.

I used 1.5 inch 16 gauge tubing for my chassis. I think I copied that off Ron's 5.0 build or maybe I just made it up. Either way, the larger cross-section tubing seemed a good idea. If you've got enough 1inch 11 ga. lying around to build a frame or to do the diagonals in your 1.25 frame, I'd say use what you got. As you already know, the 11 ga will add some weight to the build, but not any appreciable amount. (You've got a frickin' V8, fer gosh sakes, who cares if you use 11 gauge steel???? )

I don't know much about that IRS subframe you've got, but it works in the Infiniti, it can't be all that bad. Maybe if you post some more detailed shots of the control arms and uprights and get some better input from folks in here.

The OEM springs and shocks may be too much for your much lighter build. You'll have to experiment with that. Also, you might want to look at the packaging requirements for that subframe, and will it co-exist in the rear of a Se7en frame with a fuel cell and luggage space and so on. How tall is that booger? Looks like those springs stand up pretty far, and they lean inward to where the fuel cell and/or boot would be. I'm basing all this on looking at one picture, so, what I'm saying is "measure all that and see if it fits."

As far as 65 wms-to-wms, that's kind of wide, but... What width wheels with what kind of backspace are you going to use? I used a (slightly modified ) Thunderbird IRS set-up on mine, with about 62 inch wms-to-wms and the back end of my car is now 6 ft wide. That's OK for a track car, but it's hell in a one car garage...

I would vote for the same track in front or maybe slightly less. Very much less and you're going to wind up with a "push" situation in the handling department. As for the control arm length, welllll.... They'd wind up kind of long. Maybe widen the front end of the frame a bit as well? That would keep things proportionate as well as keeping the control arm length down to a reasonable number. Excessive length in the LCAs and you'll get bending loads at the coilover mounting points or some really steeply angled coilovers or just general hard to fab mounts on both ends.

OK, this is turning into a novel, I'm runnin' off at the keyboard again... Good to have you here! Keep working on that design, do some more reading and research and you'll be havin' fun before you know it...

JDK

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom

You can basically do whatever you want, you are the designer and builder. There is no right or wrong, at this stage, it's what kind of car do you want.

Now onto more important matters. More pictures of Heidi please.

_________________
mobilito ergo sum
I drive therefore I am

I can explain it to you,
but I can't understand it for you.

Damn, most of us do the build to get the attractive blonde! You're starting ahead of a few of us I suspect...

These are just my 2 cents. I am not an engineer. I am a liberal arts grad. There are some here who've built several cars over the years, and done some amazing things -- I am not one of them. And, my girlfriend is a redhead.



Well, we've kicked around the whole tube size/material/thickness thing around a whole lot here, and a few of us even got excited about it. There are people here who cite tables and such, and I can at least recite the issues they'll raise:

- Your motor isn't that heavy, at least not enough to justify the bigger tubes. If it is the Windsor, I figure about 470 pounds, which is what the old "Pinto" Lima 2.3 motor weighed. That Lima motor was used in quite a few builds back in the day.

- Your motor MIGHT have enough torque to justify heavier tubes (heavier than the 16 gauge 1" square tubes). Depends on the motor, tires, etc etc.

- I know there are several other 5.0 builds here in the past few years, and some of those were done by danged fine builders.

One notable (meaning a current, very active, well documented) build using a Ford 5.0 is
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8526
JD is always very quick to answer email and posts. (EDIT -- and in fact, he answered your post before I got done writing!)

- The 11 gauge tube question came up here a couple of weeks ago. I think that the best answer was, if you have the 11 ga tubes, and you're not concerned too much about weight -- and given your motor, your chassis size, etc, I don't think you are -- then I'd say USE IT and spend the money on the attractive blonde lady. Or fancier seats, or something.




My +2 build is 62" outside edge of tire to outside edge of tire. My rear axle, off of an S10, is only 54" between WMS, but the S10 rims have a center mount, and the tires are roughly 8". If you use modern rims, with all of that offset to the inside of the car (the WMS is basically at the outside edge of the tire) then you're in the +4 ballpark.



Or you could offset that motor/trans to the passenger's side by an inch or two (whatever you have room for in the chassis), and pick up that extra space. Bonus is that you have more room to run the steering column. Many passenger cars and trucks already have some offset for just that reason. I slid the front of my GM 3.4 over as far as could, and the rear of the T5 over maybe 1". The passenger will never notice it and I get about 2" at the pedals.

Seriously, I don't think that a +442 will present pedal space issues to you, unless you're driving in firefighter boots or something.



I'm sure that many here can do the fancy math, but having lurked here and on another forum for 7 years or so, I've never heard of the arms being too long. If you think it is too long, you can always change the rims, or use spacers or something.

**************

Other ideas --

- If you haven't made friends with Jack McCornack, I'd encourage you to do so. He's been very helpful for me, seemingly anticipating my next mistake. I'm building using his "Lalo" body.

- Resolve to have the thing on the road in 2 years from start of build. Life has a way of changing, and if you let it go longer than that, you'll get some significant disruption for sure.

- Do "something" every day. Don't try for big marathon sessions, but instead just try to spend an hour or so every day.

Heidi is a special lady for 2 reasons......

1. She doesnt mind getting dirty, ( see pics of her cranking a 5.0 out of a 88 Mustang GT)

2. She puts up with my crap!!!!

Welcome to our madhouse! I think you guys are going to fit in.

If you don't mind buying the 1.25" tube, it's a good choice. A lot more stiffness for just a bit more weight and that's a hefty motor.

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Designer of Car9, an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.

Geek'03 said:

Geek is a kind and gentle soul...
He didn't say that I'm mostly full of shi... uh... poopie and my build log is a chronicle of mistakes.

Here at Team Slotus we're happy to show how to do it wrong so that you won't have to!

Please give my regards to Heidi. I think she might be the perfect match for a locost builder. Women like that are priceless and hard to find...And they usually don't like having their picture taken wearing an old t-shirt and a doo-rag!


JDK

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom

Heck, if that's an LKQ u-pick lot, than ANYONE who goes back there and pulls an engine is a special person. (deleted ranting about my local LKQ lot)

It's not..........don't know if its ok to say their name but its a big chain of yards.......this one is located here in Mobile Alabama and they are great.

Dude! You're in Mobile??? We's practically neighbors! Let me know iffen you ever get this far east, OK? I spent the weekend in Bay St. Louis a few weeks ago, drove thru Mobile goin' and comin'... It could happen again one o'these days!

JDK

_________________
JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom

Will do my friend........love the car museum you guys have........maybe when it cools off a little we'll drive the MGB over and see your car..........and buy ya'll lunch....

Heidi and I went out to the local Pull A Part yard this morning. I need various parts for our Super sized Locost and the weather was rather cool ( for lower Alabama) this morning so we figured it would be a good day to go.
We saw that they had put out a couple new rows of GM cars so we walked them down. At the end of the first row I spotted a Gran Prix that had some unusual looking wheels on it. We managed to find all 4, someone had taken one and rolled it off to try on another car. I got to looking close and saw that they were 18 inch, pretty darn wide ( 9 or 10 inch)and 3 of them were in very good shape, one had a little curb rash on it but not too bad. One tire was bald the other 3 have about 75% tread left on them. (265/35/18)
I noticed a cobra emblem in the center cap so I whooped out the I-phone and started looking up Mustang wheels to see if I could find something simular....I think I did....Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe these may be from a Cobra Mustang.
I pulled them off and rolled them out.....$150.23 for all 4, tax included.......I figure I will find a replacement for the one with the rash, but I can use this one to hold one corner of the car up during the build anyway.
I wanted some big meat on the corners..........these should fit the bill just fine....
Headed to get some steel tommorow........working on the build table this evening.....

The mustang pattern is 5x114.3mm where the gp is 5x115mm and some folks have put them on with no apparent problems.
I'd look for wear from the nuts and the centering hole that aligns with the bearing hub.
Since you are not installing the cobra wheels on cobra hubs, you may need to make concentric rings to align the rims on the hubs. These should be hubcentric rims, not lug centric.

My front hubs will be 5 lug on Mustang 2 spindles, my rear will be the Infinity Q45. Both show to be 114.3 bolt circle.
I don't see any unusual wear in the lug holes or on the hub hole of the wheels.

How would I know if i need to make these hub-centric rings?

Thanx

I don't think the MII was hubcentric. The lugs provide all support to keep the wheel centered. The rear is probably hub centric.

If the wheels bolt circle and seats are drilled as accurately as the hub is machined, then it should be fine either way.

I would set something near the rotor studs then turn the rotor by hand to observe is there is any noticable runout.
Set the rim on the hub and studs, then slide it from side to side to feel how much slop there is between the wheel hub and the brake hub. Seat all the nuts evenly then snug. Put something near the rim and rotate the rim/rotor by hand to observe if there is any obvious runout. If the rim is offcenter, half the rim will be closer to the object and the other half will be further away. If the rim is just bent, it won't be a full 180 degrees one way or the other. When I say full 180, there will be a transition on each end.

Bottom line is if you can tighten the wheel and still have it spin true with the naked eye and a reference object close to the rim, it will be fine. If you can't or it is a lot of fiddling everytime a wheel is put on and the car vibrates at speed, consider having rings machined from uhmw plastic to center the rim. Uhmw is tough and cheap to have machined becuase it doesn't take long to make. A metal ring would not be better and many aftermarket rim mfgs sell different sized concentric rings to fit their wheels.