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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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 Post subject: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:33 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:20 am
Posts: 22
Hello everyone, new to the forum (as I'm sure you can tell by the post count) and this is my new build after Wilcap engineering decided they apparently don't want my business.

A little back story on how this build came to be......

I have always been into the more oddball cars for drag racing, I live 2 miles from a 1/8 mile track and grew up in a Ford family. I purchased a 1972 F-250 cab and chassis with a cracked oil pan in January of 2011 from a local dealer (he had bought it for the work body it had), and after getting it running, drove it for 8 months, parked it for a year, and now am selling it.
I picked up a running 2001 6.8L V10 from a F-350 for $100 from a mechanic who had replaced the engine (89k miles and it developed a timing knock, owner replaced it instead of repairing) that I had planned on putting into the truck. I later decided not to, the truck has one of those engine that was "just done right", and dynos at 412hp at the rear wheels (4spd manual), and with a 3.73 rear it will seriously boogie (I haven't had it over 110, and thats at just over half throttle in 4th).

I got interested in building a car for the engine last summer, and decided on an Ar-i-el At-om, built the frame, and someone who learned about it offered me $1500 for it, I was in about $50 and 6 weekends, so I sold it.
Then I decided to build a car of my own design, and I got about a third through with the frame (which is still outside my house at that point, see the photo at the end), and my source for a custom transmission closed up shop. I did a little research and have been trying to get Wilcap engineering to work with me for a couple months, but I can't get a reply to an email, and calling them is pointless "I'll have to have someone get back to you....", so that one is getting thrown on a back burner for a few years.

I did a little looking into a front engine rear drive car with a spaceframe and decided to go with a modified Locost, I'm going to start at the rear and work my way forward, currently I am building a heavy tubing roller when I have time to do so, and have the engine repaired, but I'm going to do a full overhaul on it and go with a custom manifold and carbs, that way I don't have to mess with the computer and everything from a production vehicle. I will post progress as it occurs on here, and will answer any questions anyone has about how I'm doing this.

Basic outline of the build to come:
My frame is going to be a "little" heavier than a standard Locost or Haynes roadster would be, I'm going to use 1.5"x11ga square tubing and try to curve the sides instead of cutting and angling. I have to widen it a little from the book dimensions to accommodate the engine.
The engine is a 2001 2V 6.8L Ford V10, will be carbureted with an MSD Flying Magnet crank trigger (it's a distributorless engine) and ignition setup.
Transmission will be a good old C6 automatic or a Powerglide (both transmission adapters are "off the rack" from Summit).
I am not yet sure about the rear end, I have a good 9" Ford sitting around, but I may go independent instead of straight axle.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, I'll get some pictures on here of the V-10, the tubing roller as it comes together, and of course, the car as it takes shape.


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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:29 am 
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I hope you're also going to turbo it for some real power.

But seriously, when I see a notion such as this I think to myself that the person is either niavely delusional knowing nothing about basic car balance or one of a very few craftsman who actually knows how to piece such mismatched bits together to get a result.

If your talking the weight, torque, CoG, etc. of a monstrous V10 into say a 92" WB, 55" tracked, spaghetti framed car then you are, respectfully, the Former.

If you are the Latter then think 100" minimum WB, 65"'ish wide tracks of which I suggest you seek out possibly a Crown Vic for parts and get any "lightweight" notions out of your head and build your chassis from 2" - it will still be light enough that not many other vehicles will see which way you went but a lot better handling and stability.


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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:06 am 
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cheapracer wrote:
I hope you're also going to turbo it for some real power.

If you are the Latter then think 100" minimum WB, 65"'ish wide tracks of which I suggest you seek out possibly a Crown Vic for parts and get any "lightweight" notions out of your head and build your chassis from 2" - it will still be light enough that not many other vehicles will see which way you went but a lot better handling and stability.


No, I'm not planning to turbo it, I see no reason to build something that I have to put wings on. :lol:
The 9" ford I have came out of a 1973 LTD, and I have been eyeballing the spare Sterling 10.25" rear end I have for my truck for this build to handle the power.
I thought about using 2"X.25" wall square tube originally, but I want to be able to roll bend where needed, and seeing as I plan to reinforce certain areas with 2" angle, I doubt I'll be wanting for strength.
As for the footprint of the car, it's planned to be a roadster, and it's going to be based off the locost and haynes, but compared to most of the ones people have built, this thing's going to be a monster.


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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:00 am 
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Location: Rosser manitoba canada
You mentioned a drag racing history. If you want to make more than 1 pass with this monster then read the nhra rules.
This will help you decide on the construction of your car. I spent the best part of friday night looking at them and there are some rules you need to know about concerning tube chassis, especially the lower rail dimensions. None of this should be a deal breaker but advance knowledge is power in this case. By the way cool concept and of course lets see some pictures.

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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:05 am 
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Welcome. Maybe this will look good as an older style roadster.

Quote:
The 9" ford I have came out of a 1973 LTD, and I have been eyeballing the spare Sterling 10.25" rear end I have for my truck for this build to handle the power.


You need traction to break anything with your power so standard full size car parts should be plenty strong.

Quote:
I thought about using 2"X.25" wall square tube originally,


I don't remember what thickness 11 gauge is right away. Remember the strength on the tubing comes from the outside of it, that's why they put a big hole in the middle. Unless you don't have much of a choice, you shouldn't need more then 1/8" wall. Going up in size is always a much better choice. Angle is mostly not a useful thing building these cars and should be avoided. It just twists and warps too easily. So try to work with different size box and plate.

Good luck. Remember in the history of monsters, there are a lot of bad endings! :)

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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Welcome to our contribution of recycled car parts.

About your plans for a lightweight, nimble sports car .............
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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Posts: 225
Location: Claremont,Ontario,Canada
I tried to satisfy NHRA rules for my car ,so I used 1.625 x .125 for the cage and 2x2x.063 for lower rails in the cockpit. Rules seem to have changed a bit(they seem much more complicated now) but this section appears to be the same.

Quote:
Unless an OEM framerail is located below and outside of driver’s legs (i.e., ’55 Chevy, ’65 Corvette, etc.) a rocker or sill bar, minimum 1 5/8-inch x .083 CM or .118 MS or 2-inch x 2-inch x .058-inch CM or MS rectangular, is mandatory in any car with a modified floor or rocker box within the roll-cage uprights


phil


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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Sounds cool as long as I don't have to fill the tank, which should be around 20-30 gallons.

Have you found a good price for the cams? Try seconds on the corral or possibly regrinding on a reduced circle.

You could greatly reduce the overal cost by just picking up an old 70s lincoln or similar and use the 460, c6, 9", spindles, and brakes. Just adapt a manual rack.

As for the frame, I'd use standard locost sizes where rules allow and strengthen the engine mounting. Locost frames are very stiff (many thousands of lbs torsional loading when done right) but if it breaks, beef it up in that area. That's how Lotus did it anyway. You need traction to really torque the chassis anyway.

Ditto on no angle iron except for special cases like some brackets or problem areas.

I suggest you stick with a 9 rather than irs if you ever want to get decent traction (i.e. antisquat).

Don't expect a fat little radiator in a Locost nose to cool this beast in traffic.

Build what you want. :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:26 pm
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So you like drag-racing, but what will the car be used for besides that?

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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Posts: 22
I'm not worried about NHRA requirements, when they built the trck here, they tried to get it certified but the NHRA refusd since it's only 1/8 not 1/4, I'll mostly be running it on the Friday "Test & Tune" days when it's on the strip, the only times it will be in a drag competition will be during "Motor Magic" every year, which is why I'm thinking about a 2-spd PG tranny for reliability

http://www.magiccityinternationaldragwa ... edule.html
http://motormagic.net/event_01.html

horizenjob wrote:
I don't remember what thickness 11 gauge is right away. Remember the strength on the tubing comes from the outside of it, that's why they put a big hole in the middle. Unless you don't have much of a choice, you shouldn't need more then 1/8" wall.


11ga from my local supplier is .120", depending on supplier it ranges from .110-.125"

Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Sounds cool as long as I don't have to fill the tank, which should be around 20-30 gallons.

Have you found a good price for the cams? Try seconds on the corral or possibly regrinding on a reduced circle.

You could greatly reduce the overal cost by just picking up an old 70s lincoln or similar and use the 460, c6, 9", spindles, and brakes. Just adapt a manual rack.

I suggest you stick with a 9 rather than irs if you ever want to get decent traction (i.e. antisquat).

Don't expect a fat little radiator in a Locost nose to cool this beast in traffic.

Build what you want. :cheers:


cams are going to be Comp Cams, NOBODY makes "off the rack" performance cams for these motors, the only exception is Comp, and they only sell the blanks, but they grind them to custom lobe specs for free when you buy the blanks :?
I'm thinking about using an old F-100 I have, it has a 460 with a c6 and manual steering
as far as cooling, I'll probably go with a Rodney Red custom radiator and will be using Evans Waterless coolant for sure

KB58 wrote:
So you like drag-racing, but what will the car be used for besides that?


well, I just enjoy cruising in the countryside a lot, I put on a couple thousand miles every year without any destination
I live in Minot, ND, and in the summertime there are always custom Model A's, Model T's, Studebakers, and many others on the roads that farmers have put together over the years (there is actually a guy less than a mile from me who makes custom Model A and T frames for people)
I'll probably end up using it as a summertime DD when I get it done, my crew cab F-350 is just too damn big to park easily


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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:50 pm 
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So something of a "different" type of hotrod... that works. The point being, it'll do just fine at that. As long as you don't try going around corners fast it'll be just fine. As for breaking things, unless you're running drag slicks it's doubtful there'll be enough traction to really be an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:26 am 
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Sounds like an interesting project. I think some of you are being unfair to the V10, the 427 AC Cobra and the Viper don't seem to have a lot of trouble going around a corner. The V10 is basically just a 5.4L with two extra cylinders. I wonder how much one weights? I could not find a weight in my google search. Realistically a V10 powered Locost should have similar weight balance to any other Locost. The transmission and rear axle will obviously be pretty heavy duty and in conjunction with the V10, the only thing that would change is the cars overall weight.

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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:06 am 
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7Degrees wrote:
Sounds like an interesting project. I think some of you are being unfair to the V10, the 427 AC Cobra and the Viper don't seem to have a lot of trouble going around a corner. The V10 is basically just a 5.4L with two extra cylinders. I wonder how much one weights? I could not find a weight in my google search. Realistically a V10 powered Locost should have similar weight balance to any other Locost. The transmission and rear axle will obviously be pretty heavy duty and in conjunction with the V10, the only thing that would change is the cars overall weight.


Official weight with all road-going accessories is 640 pounds (about 100 lbs more than a 302).
Official dimensions with all road-going accessories are 30.4 x 28.5 x 31.7 inches.


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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:27 am 
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Mid-Engined Maniac

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Location: SoCal
7Degrees wrote:
... I think some of you are being unfair to the V10, the 427 AC Cobra and the Viper don't seem to have a lot of trouble going around a corner...

On a superspeedway track maybe but on any course with twisty turns, a 4-cyl Locost will beat it every time. As a cruiser and large-track car it'll be great... autocross, no, hence my question for its proposed purpose. Have you ever watched a properly set-up 4-cyl Lotus/Locost at an autocross? It beats everything.

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 Post subject: Re: John's V-10 roadster
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:02 am 
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I took the camera with me today so I could snap a couple pictures of the engine as it sits right now, I have removed the original intake and accessory brackets (because I probably won't be using them).


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I have been on the fence as to how this engine will be built since I will have to get custom cam grinds.
I could go with a lopey cam and make this thing nuts as far as low-end torque (which is pointless because the car will weigh nothing compared to the 15+ ton load it was designed to move), thus making it rumble like a weird stroker big block V8 without sacrificing power.
My other option is to go tight and perfectly balanced with everything, in which case I would be able to get the redline up around 12k (I am in contact with someone who has done it already, he'll give me all the info I need to do it), which would give me an insanely high powerband that I'll never use, but make the car sound like it was built to run Indy.

I would like to know which people would like to hear out of one of these cars and why, I have no problem building the engine either way, but I myself cannot decide.


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