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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: November 12, 2013, 1:21 am 
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Location: Carlsbad, California, USA
Yup, that's cool looking. I like it too.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: December 9, 2013, 11:44 am 
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Location: Warrenton, Virginia
It took a long time to dis-assemble the MGB and tuck everything away.
I was surprised to find an overdrive transmission under all the leaves and rust.
So, now back to the 7, and the brackets for the rear axle. I'm using some1 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 1/8" stock for the lower diag. control arm brackets ( on the axle and frame side) and 1/8" plate stock for the top control arms and shock mounts.
Attachment:
SatDiagAxle01.jpg

Attachment:
SatDiagAxle02.jpg

Attachment:
SatDiagAxle03.jpg

Attachment:
SatDiagAxle04.jpg

The pieces that fit the axle tube were rough cut, cleaned up and then slowly fitted the axle tube. 2 pieces were cut and cleaned for the angled verticals.
Attachment:
SatDiagAxle05.jpg

Attachment:
SatDiagAxle06.jpg

Attachment:
SatDiagAxle07.jpg

Attachment:
SatDiagAxle08.jpg

Attachment:
SatDiagAxle09.jpg

Attachment:
SatDiagAxle10.jpg

These pieces are just layed one on top of the other. As soon as the filler is welded in the vert., and cleaned up, the real fun part is next. Cutting a nice tight opening so it will insert at 90 degrees and turned 45 degrees.
Attachment:
AxleBrkt4LCA,d.jpg


Hoping to show how it turns out soon,
Ron


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PostPosted: December 9, 2013, 11:38 pm 
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Some pretty slick and practical fab work - congrats. :thmbsup:

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: December 10, 2013, 10:58 am 
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Thanks Lonnie.

Just making do with what's at hand :) .

Ron

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PostPosted: December 11, 2013, 1:56 pm 
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[quote=
Just making do with what's at hand :) .

Ron[/quote]

The story of my life and shop work. It's either a curse or a blessing :=)

Nice fab work.

Ron

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PostPosted: December 13, 2013, 7:33 pm 
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Finished one side.
Attachment:
SatDiagAxle10b.jpg

Laid out a center line, marked the distance from the axle, scribed lines 45 degrees to the center, and traced the shape of the vertical peice of the bracket.
Attachment:
SatDiagAxle10a.jpg

Drilled the two back corners, used an angle grinder to cut deep enough the use a hack saw blade to finish the cuts.
Attachment:
SatDiagAxle10c.jpg

Filed to fit.
Attachment:
SatDiagAxle11.jpg

Attachment:
SatDiagAxle12.jpg

So far so good!

Does anyone know, off hand, how thick the axle tubes are?

Ron


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PostPosted: December 14, 2013, 8:44 am 
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To answer my own question, the 1987 Fox Mustang 7.5 axle I'm using is probably .188" (3/16") . Some later Ford Axles used .250" tubes.
Needed to know what to use for practice to "dial in " the MIG.

Ron

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PostPosted: December 14, 2013, 11:25 am 
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Hi Ron,

I don't know the answer to your question, but it's out there on the Internet somewhere. I think it's more a question of knowing which axle manufacturer made the unit (Dana, etc.). I'm using the same axle, but the 1994 version, which is mechanically very similar.

A problem, Nick had earlier has shaped my thinking on welding the axle tubes. Also, observation of welding distortion during my build added to my concerns. I'll just pass it on for your evaluation with respect to your own build.

Nick and I are using the same 110V Miller MIG welder. He found the welding penetration was not sufficient for doing his MGB axle, which is considerably lighter than our Ford 7.5" one. When welding my rotisserie setup for my chassis, I was surprised how much distortion was had in the tubes in areas that required multiple beads in close proximity (as will the suspension brackets I have planned for my own build). Because of that, I've decided to only tack weld my brackets on the axle and then have them completed by my local driveline shop who has the right equipment and work experience to do the job correctly. Plus, they have the ability to check the axle tubes for straightness after all welding is done and the skills and equipment to correct same if need be.

I'm having so little work done professionally that I decided to give myself one as a gift given its critical nature. I just prefer to be cautious in this case as the consequences (a bent axle will always cause subtle alignment and steering problems) are potentially significant and very annoying. All that said, there are probably hundreds of Locosts doing fine with the basic processes shows in the Book, so it's just a matter of judgment and comfort level, not a necessity.

Cheers,

Lonnie

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: December 14, 2013, 12:05 pm 
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Location: Novato, CA
I ultimately did get the rear axle welded up with my Miller, with the amperage and wire speed set to max, but I took a whole day on it, welding only a few inches at a time, and then letting it cool for half an hour. I actually couldn't weld for more than about 15-20 seconds at a time without blowing a circuit breaker in the house. I also padded the bead on both sides for a little extra security.

But I still don't trust those welds. They don't look good, and they're the first thing I check every week when I'm looking over the chassis for cracks. I seriously doubt I got much more than 50% penetration on the axle. Fortunately I'm only putting out about 90 hp, so I'm not tugging too hard on them. I never liked that fact that these welds are mostly always in tension. I wish I'd had them professionally welded so I wouldn't have to worry about it.
Attachment:
axlewelds8.jpg


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PostPosted: December 14, 2013, 12:26 pm 
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It is entirely possible to weld that, even with a small welder. You will need to do a proper multipass weld and it is entirely about weld prep. Cut a chamfer into your bracket and make sure it fits on the axle tightly with no large gaps. Wirebrush everything and wash it with IPA. Weld a small and accurate line right at the joint (often called a root pass), let it cool, wire brush it and then wash it with IPA. Weld a second line on one side of your root pass making sure the puddle is mixing into the root pass, let it cool, wire brush it, wash it with IPA, then weld a third line on the other side, making sure your puddle mixes with both weld line 1 and 2. Cleanliness is key here. You get slag and inclusions in your root pass (or any pass for that matter) and lay a weld over the top of it, that weld is going to fail. This process is commonly done when welding pipes. An internet image search for "3 pass weld" will bring up many examples if my description doesn't make sense.


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PostPosted: December 14, 2013, 5:56 pm 
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Thank you all, Lonnie, Nick, and esp42089!
( I just flashed on that scene from MIB " Let me introduce the twins, Bob and esp42089" ).....
Anyway :roll: .

Integrity of the welds is a huge concern. No where more than the welds that hold the wheels on the car :shock:
But you see, I started down this road because I wanted to learn how to build a car from scratch. Like the guys in the car magazines I poured over in the 50's and 60's. Bonus, it will be a 2 seat convertible sports car of the first order! You car see how it is worth it to me to take the time to do the welding.

As far as welders...
1) 220v Hobart 235 Amp Stickmate AC/DC and
2) 220v Hobart Handler 210 MIG.
The penetration only has to be as deep as the thinner
( 1/8") bracket pieces. I'm confident I can manage that with practice.

The warping is another issue altogether.
The way the brackets attach to the axle results in very nearly the same amount of heat applied to both sides. ( in theory ).
Attachment:
SatDiagAxle13.jpg

I'll make a tool that spans the length of the tubes so they can be checked for warping. If "warping happens" I understand that the Old School fix is to lay beads on the opposite side until it's straight. With a little care I"ll never know if it works or not.

esp42089

I had to Google IPA. :lol:
Do have, will use. I've read that the chamfer should be 30 degrees for two thick pieces that are to be butt welded together, so do you think 45 degrees where they are being joined at right angles? Maybe trying different angles when practicing would help.

About the MIG, right now I'm using flux core wire. I read (again) that flux core gives better penetration. Any thoughts on that?

Again , thanks for the good anvice.

Ron


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In my defense the moon was full and I was left unsupervised


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PostPosted: December 14, 2013, 7:00 pm 
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oh yeah, IPA= Iso-propyl alcohol. You can use acetone but you have to be a bit more careful about cleanup and storage so that you don't light yourself and your garage on fire.

45 degrees and you will have trouble reaching the deepest part of the joint, risking a void and cold cracking. A steeper angle like 30 will work best because it will give you more access to the root weld.


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PostPosted: December 14, 2013, 8:59 pm 
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esp42089,
Thank you Sir!
Like this, right?
Attachment:
SatDiagAxle13a.jpg


Can do. :wink:

Ron


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In my defense the moon was full and I was left unsupervised


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PostPosted: December 14, 2013, 11:46 pm 
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Yeah, just like that. Multipass welds on mild steel with GMAW are a great place to start. Easiest process and easiest metal, everything has a much larger margin of forgiveness.

Make sure you get good penetration, you will have to focus on the axle a bit more with your root weld because your bracket will be thinner due to your chamfer.

For future reference:

IPA - relatively safe, it is flammable but has a very high flash point, so contact ignition is not a very serious concern and you don't have to worry about vapors igniting. It is still a good idea to seal and store it away from your work space before lighting up.

Acetone - probably a better solvent/cleaner than IPA, it also evaporates much faster. It has a lower flash point, and ignition can be more of a concern. If you use acetone you will want to allow your parts to fully dry and the space to air out before welding. Needless to say, seal and store the container away from the work area!

Mineral Spirits - do not use these to prep a weld area. They leave residues that do more harm than good. There is a reason mineral spirits feel oily and IPA and Acetone feel dry.

-Evan


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PostPosted: December 15, 2013, 10:45 am 
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I will routinely use mineral spirits for cleaning parts. It is great for greasy parts and does not evaporate too quickly making the working time pretty good. I get the part 95% clean with the mineral spritis, then follow up the last 5% with acetone.

I can tell stories of small, heated alcohol and acetone containers on a production floor; the operators smoking cigarettes 24 inches away while they worked. None of those "events" were catastrophic though. Yeah, that was a different time!


I wish I knew more about those "full penetration" welds that everyone talks about. I am an amatuer welder. I think the term has more to do with penetrating the gap between the two pieces rather than the HAZ penetrating as deep as the thickness of the thicker of the two pieces. See the attached dwg of a partial penetration weld. I'm thinking as long as "2X" is greater than the 1/8", then you will get a weld that is at least as strong as the poarts being welded. That is disregarding stress risers and assumes that you get some depth of penetration, i.e. the weld isn't just sitting on the base metal. Is this right?

Further, as long as 2X is strong enough to do the job, (~70Kpsi) it doesn't even have to be as thick as the 1/8" base material. Is this right?


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Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

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