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PostPosted: August 22, 2013, 3:38 pm 
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Joined: July 10, 2013, 6:05 pm
Posts: 11
Frame: +442E purchased mostly complete from another builder.
Engine: 1999 firebird 3800 V6
Rear End: IRS from a 1991 Thunderbird Super Coupe

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This is a father-son build located around Kansas City. No straight up donor car, as we don't have anywhere to put it. We picked up the frame, a volvo red block, and a rear axle on May 25 2013 from another builder who was sadly abandoning his project. His build thread was here. His original plans were for a custom nose, volvo donor parts for quite a bit of it. We liked the frame, considered the engine it came with, but ultimately decided we might want more power, and were definitely interested in IRS.

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We purchased the front spindles, rotors and whole IRS assembly from a 91 Thunderbird Super coupe. We were able to transport them to the shop to work on them. Of course, they didn't fit in the frame as it was.

We trimmed off the rear mounts (a gigantic pain in the ass) because the mounting angle was all wrong and there would be clearance issues if we tried to use them. We are planning on mounting to the holes near the center of the rear part of the subframe. To do make sure everything was clear we needed to trim the two large mounting pieces off of the frame in the back. We are redesigning the rear end with this subframe in mind now.

We should have plenty of clearance, and I think we've got the front and rear mounts figured out for the subframe, but bracing is a little fuzzy, we just need to attempt to find the option that will produce the minimum amount of headaches.

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PostPosted: August 22, 2013, 5:24 pm 
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Welcome guys! :cheers: Plenty to read here and ask some questions when they start coming up.

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PostPosted: August 22, 2013, 5:28 pm 
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We have the Volvo Red Block motor & 5-speed trans which we got from the original builder. It is missing the turbo, alternator, starter, distributor and possibly a few other minor bits. Transmission shifts freely.

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We also have the rear axle out of a 940 Volvo, complete with weld-on brackets and control arms to fit into a Locost frame. If anyone can use these in their build, price is $100.00 each, f.o.b McPherson, Kansas.

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PostPosted: August 22, 2013, 5:34 pm 
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Joined: July 10, 2013, 6:05 pm
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July 31, 2013

I had my welder friend Gary Cooper come over and weld the heavy plate parts which are all suspension mounting brackets. It seems like a good insurance policy because I know they'll stick once he's welded them. I'll have him over again when I get the sub frame back in and the roll bar fabricated and mounted. The roll bar might be one good project for our work weekend the 17th and 18th. In the meantime I'll fabricate and install the bulkhead and the floors and the transmission tunnel sides. I'm starting to look at the front suspension design and it will be a bit of a project there, too.

Driveshaft tunnel is restored. Note that I had to do some grinding on the lower cross member to get it to clear the front of the Super Coupe sub frame. I think the steel floor will adequately reinforce this area once it is installed. I'm planning to pick up 14 gauge tomorrow to begin fitting the floors. I don't know what I was thinking; the sheet of 14 gauge I have is 49" long and the floors are 53". The existing sheet will work well, though, for the bulkhead or driveshaft tunnel sides.

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PostPosted: August 22, 2013, 5:37 pm 
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I finished the roll bar this morning. I got smart and had the local welding shop bend the hoop with a draw bender, which resulted in perfect bends. He charged me $35.15. It is 1.25" pipe, 1.66" O.D., so the walls are about .2" which should be pretty solid. I had some 1.75" O.D. tubing, 12 gauge wall, already, which I used for the supports. With a few minor gussets (which I purposely left out so I could weld the bottom of the rear supports) and this phase will be finished.

I've ordered the front control arm kits from Kinetic Vehicles and I have ball joints coming as well (and the fuel tank), so next step will be front suspension and steering.


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PostPosted: August 22, 2013, 5:52 pm 
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July 23, 2013 (Yes - out of chronological order)

This is the best idea I've had so far for the rear shock/spring mounting. The lower brackets tie into the upper control arm on the IRS at the hinge point. The upper brackets (2.5" square tubing, .25" wall with one side cut away) attach to 1/4" plate which is attached to the bottom of the roll bar mounting plate and a diagonal brace. A couple of small gussets will carry the suspension load into the bulkhead and I plan to plate the inside of the passenger compartment which should distribute the force forward on the frame. Once the roll bar is installed the rear braces will stiffen the entire structure. At this point everything is lightly tacked together so I can look at it for a while before I commit.

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PostPosted: August 22, 2013, 6:19 pm 
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Location: Sarasota
Good luck with the build guys!

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PostPosted: September 27, 2013, 11:43 am 
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Dauer Welding & Machine in Lindsborg, Kansas is just a great place to do business! They're always cheerful and willing to share their knowledge with a novice like me. Norman Dauer modified the front spindles off of a 91 Tbird Super Coupe to accept the Moog ES2074R ball joints. He had to cut off the top arm, which formerly held the top ball joint, and ream the hole where the bottom of the strut mounted so it would accept the tapered stud on the bottom of the ball joint. He relieved the metal around the top of the hole with a grinder so the body of the ball joint would fit.

The existing hole for the bottom ball joint was too large to accept the ES2074R ball joint I wanted to use, so Norman welded in a spacer and reamed it as well. He had to grind the ear on the spindle thinner by about 1/4" as it was too thick to allow the castle nut to seat properly on the tapered stud of the ball joint. He ground it on the top (axle) side of the ear, which allows plenty of room on the bottom side for the body of the ball joint. This process is more complicated than I had anticipated, but it allows us to use the same bolt pattern on both axles, which should simplify the selection of wheels when we get to that point.


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PostPosted: October 28, 2013, 2:26 pm 
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The front control arm parts are all sorted--time to start fitting. The sheer number of parameters to consider is pretty intimidating. However, I've got to start somewhere so I'm going to weld up the lower front (rectangular) control arms and install the pivot mounts for them with spot welds so I have something to go on. Then install the lower ball joints and the spindles and upper ball joints and see where that puts the upper front control arms and their mounting brackets.
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PostPosted: October 28, 2013, 2:27 pm 
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Sometimes having a fork lift is a Very Good Thing.


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PostPosted: December 11, 2013, 8:50 am 
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It's good to see somebody using the tbird fronts with the tbird rears. I can give you the distance between the lca pivots so you can determine where to put the uca pivots to work with the tbird rack width, inner tie rod pivot to inner tie rod pivot.

Another option is to use the stock tbird lbjs by cutting a .250" wall ring from a piece of pipe for the tbird lbj to press into rather than using a tie rod for a lbj on the loaded control arm, but I think es2074 does not use a spring against the ball like other tie rods do so it may be okay.

The diff looks low by several inches. The pinion should be at close to the same height as the transmission output shaft to keep the ujoint operating angle low. It's possible to lower the trans mount to point at the pinion and rotate the diff to point at the trans output shaft (reducing ground clearance), but the front diff bolts are vertical and the bushings are very hard durometer, so the mount would need to be redesigned rather than just shimming the rear mount down to rotate the pinion up.

The coilovers will need a thick walled tube to clamp between the flanges then bushings to distribute the spring load. Spacers can be pipe, bushings uhmw, and thin wall dom welded into flanges to acts as outer races for bushings.


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PostPosted: December 11, 2013, 12:22 pm 
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This configuration gives us 6" of ground clearance, less whatever the suspension compresses with the weight of the motor. The spring tension is adjustable, so to some extent that can be controlled.

Upper shock mount is a 32" piece of 1.5" x 1.5" x .125" wall square tubing notched at the bottom to allow the top ear of the shock to fit. It projects 2.125" from the outside of the upper frame rail on each side. This is about as vertical as I can get the shock and still get clearance between the upper control arms.


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PostPosted: December 11, 2013, 12:27 pm 
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Fuel tank arrived yesterday--thanks, Jack! I put in the mounts today and tomorrow I'll figure out how to secure it. There is a little over an inch clearance above the return fitting. I hope that's enough. The tank is about as low as it can go.

I mounted it offset to the right as far as the sump would allow, and that will leave room on the left for a small "binnacle," (as I think Russ called it), perhaps enough room for a few tools or a jacket.

Guess if I wanted a big trunk I'd be building a Town Car...


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PostPosted: April 15, 2014, 2:55 pm 
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Joined: January 4, 2013, 12:54 pm
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Hi all, I'm one of the builders on this car and I've been assigned some work with the engine. I am not terribly familiar with the 3800 (or really any engine), but I learn fast.

Here's a photo of one section of missing parts, can any of you help me identify what I'm missing?

I am thinking #1 and #6 are engine mounts of some sort, but I'm not sure on the others.


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PostPosted: January 21, 2015, 2:37 pm 
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Posts: 11
We're back at it, finally. I have finished the motor mounts and the motor is firmly in the car. Clearance with the T5 WC transmission is tight on both sides, and we have some interference with the shifter and the top of the driveline tunnel. Also clearance for the clutch hydraulic line connection might be an issue. Neither is unsolvable, just means a bit more work.

I used 2x4 steel tubing to make the motor mounts, and the only tubing I could find had 1/4" wall, which is too heavy, but there it is. We notched the upper corners to get clearance for the bolts which fasten it to the block and we cut a big hole in it to lighten it a bit and make us feel better. We used the stock Firebird motor mounts--we had to trim the sides a bit to get them to fit inside the 2x4 tubing. The plate on which the motor mounts rest is 1/8", welded to the frame and with 1" spacers welded beneath it around the bolt holes. That way the bolts don't collapse the two plates together when they're tightened.

Next step will be driveshaft, then start on the brake and clutch pedals and lines.

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