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PostPosted: January 2, 2018, 9:46 pm 
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Marcus - here is a pic of my solstice spindle. It is machined similar to yours but it is a lot wider. There is also a lot of "meat" on the wheel side of the spindle that the pics don't show. I was going to do an upper rocker arm with the spring/shock inboard rather than using the pushrod set up, but my engineer friend didn't think the upper ball joint mount was suitable for that type of load.


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PostPosted: January 2, 2018, 10:54 pm 
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Sean, are those Solstice uprights made of iron or aluminum? Just curious! Saw a pic of one of them and it had "ALCOA" cast into it!

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PostPosted: January 3, 2018, 1:12 am 
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The solstice parts are aluminum. A little thicker than typical steel parts, but the engineering concepts should be the same (i would think - i am not an engineer)


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PostPosted: January 3, 2018, 9:18 pm 
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If it makes you feel any better Marcus, this is whats holding the front wheels on a Spridget (~2,000 lbs GVWR): https://www.spridgetmania.com/part/C-BT ... -Mg-Midget

The section between the fulcrum pin's bore and the main body is about 0.75" thick and 0.9" tall with some pocketing and other fairly nasty cross sectional area changes. The largest diameter at the bottom of the kingpin is 0.78".

I'm guessing you'll be around the same weight with more grip and you still have a lot more steel. Radius it and stop worrying! :cheers:

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PostPosted: January 14, 2018, 9:18 pm 
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I finally managed to swing by my local welding store and brought my upright with me so I could discuss welding on it to make it a different shape. I spoke with the store owner and he didn't seem concerned about the feasibility of that work or the alloy being 1040/1045. He was concerned that the material being welded on would be very clean so he recommended that I sand blast the parts where I intended to weld. He also sold me a small spool of .030 wire, so far I have only been using the smaller stuff. My expectation is that it will take most of a spool to do each upright.

I'm still on the fence about doing this but want to get the information about it so that's why I went to talk to the shop owner. My plan is to continue to make progress around this issue and put off the welding until somewhat later. Maybe not much later though because it looks like fun to do this. It's also part of my thinking thru what it takes to make homemade spindles for the front and rear of these cars.

At the moment the cost of the rear suspension is giving 2nd thoughts. I chose Ford kit car IRS spindles which were original equipment on 90's Thunderbirds. Just using prices from Summit racing the uprights are $175 a piece, the hub is $160 and a bearing at $95. The cost of a modern Mustang bolt on hub is $50 or so. Ford Escape has much cheaper parts that also look suitable for using, but they are not bolt ob hubs, they are more traditional style.

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PostPosted: January 15, 2018, 7:12 am 
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Marcus, be careful assuming the guy / gal behind the counter of the local welding supply house actually knows more than you do. The days of having anything other than a clerk or salesman behind the counter are long gone. There may be some that are knowledgeable, but the vast majority, in my experience, are not. 1040 / 1045 steels are medium carbon medium tensile steel. They should to be pre-heated to about 300* -500* before welding, and maintained during welding. Use a contact type thermocouple to verify, not an infrared. Depending on reflectivity, the non-contact type can be off over a 100*. Cool the part slowly after welding by wrapping the part in a fiberglass blanket. There's more to it than most people think, and since cracking is the biggest problem you will run into with this, obviously a crack on an upright is no bueno!. I would also recommend having the welds at least dye penetrant tested when you are done.

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PostPosted: January 15, 2018, 7:32 am 
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Marus - you might want to sign up on www.weldingweb.com There are a few guys on there who really know what they are talking about, plus the usually herd of those who think they do. Zapster (Steve Reccia) is terrific. He works in North Attleboro at a place called Monarch Machine. He won't give bad advice. I took a few of his (free - super nice!) welding classes when i bought my Tig 10 years ago.

Personally, id be afraid to weld on it, though done properly, it shouldnt be a problem. For a company to make such a poor engineering decision, id be concerned about the quality of the metal. Id have no issue smoothing out the stress risers, though.


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PostPosted: January 15, 2018, 9:19 am 
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I would follow Dismantalus advice above, but also add that you may be able to get acceptable welds with slow cooling, but this material really requires a post weld stress relief heat treat if you really want to know that you weld is fine. This leads me to my second question which is what type of heat tread condition is the part currently in? My guess is that the body of the spindles are annealed and that the pins were induction hardened, but without doing proper hardness checks you will never know. Developing a welding process on an heat treatable material material with an unknown history is something that weld engineers take very cautiously and will only proceed with as much information as possible. If this was something I was asked to work on my first step would be to do hardness testing fist to try and determine if any heat treat was done and what kind and then go from there. Ultimately when you are done you want the spindle returned to the original condition but with more material added. If one just goes to town and welds these spindles up you risk the possibility of creating metallurgical problems that could make the spindles weaker than when you started.


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PostPosted: January 27, 2018, 2:15 pm 
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Thanks guys for all the good welding advice you have given. I'm going to keep this as an option going forward, but will put off actually doing it until I get much further along. I sense this could turn into a project on its own and I don't want to slow down that much. For the time and effort involved it might well be just as easy to build uprights from scratch using bolt on hubs, Pinto axle spuds or some other axle stub.

I've been on the fence about a bunch of things, so broke down and ordered some parts. I'd like the option of 13" wheels for racing and still not have enormous scrub, so I ordered some high mis-alignment spherical bearings and cups to go with them. I ordered the cups, monoball pins and snap rings from UB Machine. They sounded pretty approachable on the phone, so I think I'm going to call them up next week and ask whether they build their parts in house and if they would do some custom parts for Locost folks. Any requests or ideas for parts? I ordered the bearings from Summit racing and they are QA1 YPB12-T parts. There are more expensive ones but I hope these will be adequate.

The equivalent parts used for formula cars are Narrow spec spherical bearings, but they only provide 8 degrees of misalignment. There are also wide spec bearings which provide 13 degrees and then the high misalignment which provide 18 degrees. The 8 degrees is enough for the long arms and limited travel of formula car. Part of my reason to use these parts is that I am trying to minimize the space taken up by the joints, to fit them in a 13" rim. Each of these style joints uses more room as it provides more misalignment. Possibly I should have compromised on the wide series bearings. There is a multitude of cups to hold these things and they need to match too because these bearings have different housing heights.

Also bought a set of small brake rotors....

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PostPosted: February 15, 2018, 8:56 pm 
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Made myself a bearing holder. This is made from a spherical bearing weld ring and a grade 5 bolt with a 3/8" tab. It would be used on a front upper control arm to provide adjustability. It's slightly distorted now, I think I could press in the bearing but haven't tried it yet. Also haven't really measured how much it went out from round or shrunk from welding. In the end it went better than I thought it was going to.

I think I will land up going with 15" rims so I may just go with ball joints and weld rings for those. The weld rings I have for the ball joints are a good amount beefier and perhaps would not distort when I weld them.

Agonized a long time over wheels recently. There are so many inexpensive and attractive aluminum wheels these days. They seem to be pretty tightly focused on the most common offsets and bolt patterns though. They are also copies of common more expensive units which it turns out are available in more offsets and bolt patterns. It just hurts more when you buy them. The first sets I sort of figured this out on are units from Weld Racing. Some of their wheels are quite expensive so I had started to avoid looking at them.

What I found eventually was the Weld Racing ProStar, a wheel intended for 70's and 80's cars for street and drag strip use. https://www.weldwheels.com/product/prostar/ It wasn't really the look I wanted but now I have grown fond of them. They cost twice the cheap aluminum cast wheels but they are forged and weigh 14 lbs. instead of 20. These are available in many widths, including 8" with a 6.5" backspace which works out to a 50 mm offset. I talked with their staff and since it is an older design and targeted at the drag strip it is not an ideal choice for something like a Camaro used for road racing. Might be fine on our Locosts though. They are very willing to recommend their modern wheels which cost %50 more for severe cornering use. Both Jegs and Speedway offer identical looking wheels for half the price with load ratings suitable for an SUV. Not so light though and 1" less backspacing.

With a 50mm offset these rims will make for less than an 1" of scrub. I'll have to visit my drawings again to find out exactly.

The more modern forged wheels they make come in the 15x8 with 6.5 backspace and also 5x5 bolt pattern so you could use the light brake options on your Pinto spindle. The stock Pinto rotor is 9.25" and you could get a couple of choices of 10.25" and 10.5" rotors for that. Not sure the Weld wheels will take the 5/8" wheel studs though so need to look a little more. The Pinto and larger 10.25" brakes are about 14-15 lbs. Just haven't finished figuring if they have enough capacity to use on a track. The larger ones are for modified oval tack use but I'm not sure how much braking they do. I finally found AFCO makes an 11" rotor at 18 lbs. instead of the 21 lbs that seems more common...


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PostPosted: February 18, 2018, 2:18 pm 
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Just a quick update. I didn't get around to mentioning it, but the part in the picture above was just practice. I don't know what I was thinking but the tab is not big enough for the size clevis people use on these things. I'll probably make aanother, but want to weight this setup compared to the balljoint one.

Was searching thru options for driveshafts, differential internals and hub options while Talledaga Nights was on TV. So here is Ricky Bobby's car with the wheels I found that come in lots of offsets. If it's good enough for Ricky, I suppose it should be good enough for me.


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PostPosted: February 21, 2018, 1:30 am 
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I did some practice welding for the front suspension but haven't made any real parts yet because I want to get the track right, which requires getting the rear track dimensions. The drawings have a good indication but I don't have those parts in hand so relied on various sources. I'm considering alternatives now for the rear end because the prices for the T'bird uprights, hubs and bearings add up quite a bit, like $700-$800.

I have been planning on using a Ford 8.8 diff from an Explorer. It has a nice, robust and light aluminum case. The half shafts seem to be heavier than I would like and also fit neither the T'bird uprights or the Mustang IRS bolt on hubs. Furthermore, from my reading, the internals of the 8.8 IRS diffs are pretty much the same ( possibly excepting the most recent Mustang unit which I do not understand ). In fact there are probably more than a dozen different diffs available for the internals. That does not seem to include the stub axles that plug into the diff though. The Explorer stub axles use a larger seal at the case, sigh.

Where is all this going? I want to use lighter half shafts than the Explorer ( 25 lbs. ) or the modern Mustang. There is a big assortment of spline counts here and lengths here. I took apart my Explorer halfshaft to see how it is made and put together. I think I will be buying some more aftermarket Ford halfshafts and seeing what parts can be mixed and matched. I am also going to look at how the seals fit to the diff and see if I can design an aluminum collar to allow smaller seals. If I can manage to get the T'bird halfshafts in there that should be the lightest choice. I also looked into fitting 930 style CV joints from the sandrail community and that choice looks really expensive.

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PostPosted: February 21, 2018, 8:14 am 
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Yo Marcus-
I'm trying to remember how I mixed and matched stuff... Been a while.

My diff is out of a Mustang Cobra. It is mated to a cover from an Explorer. A buddy sold me the Cobra diff for 35 bucks or something like that. Earl came up with the cover, free, from somewhere deep in the bowels of the local Ford dealership where he worked at the time.

I have a shortened T-Bird axle on the passenger side. You might remember the first one, that lasted 4 feet into my first autocross run. We then used a technique that Chuck explained to me to cut down the second one. No worries since. If you need to shorten the axle, PM me and I'll 'splain it all to ya.

I have an OEM Mustang Cobra (03?) axle on the driver's side. A Cobra owner replaced the axles in his car and didn't want the old ones. Another friend of mine at the Ford dealer gave them to me.

Here's the sketchy memory part... I recall taking apart the inner CV joint and swapping out pieces/parts so the the stub that goes into the diff was from the original T-Bird axle and the outer part was Cobra. I think... Maybe... YMMV...

Other'n that, how the heck are ya? Coming to Florida any time soon?

Peace, Love and CV Joints-
JDK

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PostPosted: February 21, 2018, 6:17 pm 
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Thanks for chiming in JD. It looks like from the table that you had to replace an outer stub to make it 28 spline for the T'bird hub. Or maybe set it up for the Mustang hub? Do yu have the 5x4.5" bolt pattern or the T'bird one (5x4.25?)? Is the inner CV joint bigger on one side of your car than the other? It looks like the Mustang had upgraded inner CV joint. I notice it's spec'ed the same size as a 930 joint.

What I've worked out so far from info on Surtrac/Tracmotive CV halfshafts on RockAuto.com

edited numerous times to format and add more information...
Code:
model         splines in/out      CV size in/out    length    Surtrac/TrakMotive Part#

T'bird           28/28              81.5/91         31 5/8     FD8082

Edge 2010        25/28              79/79           32 27/32   FD8158   31.8 axle nut
                 25/28                   79/79        35 1/8     FD8157
                  /31               89/91                      FD8144   36mm axle nut (front)

Escape  2010          /28               79/83           21 15/32   FD8095   32mm axle nut
                  /26?                              30 1/2     FD8237   32mm axle nut (rear)
                                                    33 7/32    FD8236

Explorer         31/29                              33 1/4     FD8276
                                                    32         FD8278

Fusion 2010     25/28              67.5/70       30 5/8    FD8175   32mm
                                                 32 41/64   FD8174

Mustang 1999    28/28               108/91          31 17/64   FD8176   36mm axle nut (front)
        2001    31/28                               31 1/8     FD8283
        2016    34/31                               33 19/32   FD8280
                                                    32 29/32   FD8281


Edge 2010 front hubs 5x4.5 28 spline
           bearing Timkin 510063 Bore 45mm 1.772"  Outer Dia 84mm 3.307" Width 45mm 1.772"
    rear bolt on hubs 5x4.5 28 spline Timkin HA590183
           wheel pilot 70.47mm 2.774" brake pilot 72mm 2.835" hub pilot 3.071"
           flange offset 2.48" flange dia. 5.5" mounting pattern 4.224"

Escape  2010 5x4.5 Front hub (SKF BR930286 $46)
            bearing Timkin 510072  Bore 42mm 1.6535"  Outer Dia 78mm 3.071" Width 45mm 1.772"
    rear hub
            bearing Timkin 510029  Bore 40mm 1.575"   Outer Dia 75mm 2.953" Width 37mm 1.457"

Escape 2016 Rear bolt on hub  5x4.25? 27 spline
           wheel pilot 63.270mm 2.491" brake pilot 63.424mm 2.497" hub pilot 3.2"
           flange offset 2.884" flange dia. 5.373 mounting pattern 4.390?

T'bird hubs 5x4.25 28 spline 2.775 in. (~70.5mm ) Wheel Pilot ( Mustang GT )
  front hub
            wheel pilot 2.49" brake pilot 2.8" flange offset 1.87"
            bearing
  rear hub (T'bird HUB88)
            bearing Timkin Set49    Bore 42mm 1.6535" Outer Diam 76mm 2.9921"  Width 39mm 1.5354"

Mustang 1999-2004 IRS hubs are 28 spline 5x4.5
Mustang 2015+ bolt on hubs are 31 spline 5x4.5


Curb weights
 2011 Explorer 4550 - 4700
 2011 Escape   3260 - 3470
 2011 Edge      4080 - 4470


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SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
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PostPosted: February 21, 2018, 8:13 pm 
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Hi Marcus,

I did some research on Ford 8.8 IRS components when I was getting ready to start my Car9 build. Put the info in a white paper posted here:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14439&hilit=components

You might find some of the info useful in you current deliberations.

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