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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 12, 2014, 12:42 am 
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I'm not completely following the discussion, but what I think MV8 is discussing is this picture. THe control arm legs could have a wider base at the frame and then the brackets could be on or near the vertical tubes there. Also he is recomending or implying not to mount those arms by drilling into the center of those tubes. I'm not sure that's our intent or just how you posed the picture. You can make a tube stronger or weaker when you attach something to it.Also if you have bushings instead of rod ends they don't allow adjustment of angle as easily, at some point they will resist, depending on how hard the bushing material is.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 12, 2014, 10:13 am 
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Laminar wrote:
Wouldn't an engineer want only just enough structural support?


Ah, no. We have something called Factor of Safety. Running a design right to the limit makes us nervous.

Laminar wrote:
Anyone can build a bridge that stands, but only a bean counter can build a bridge that barely stands.


Fixed it for you.

john hennessy wrote:
as an old engineer, i believe it is not enough to produce the part to fit the minimum specifications but to develope the design to its ultimate state


I'm guessing you are no longer engineering or at least not in big industry. My work used to get reviewed by the head of Engineering. Now I get "help" from managers from Marketing and the Project groups instead. We now design such that there is a resonable chance our product will make it to the end of the warranty period.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 12, 2014, 1:27 pm 
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so why is most of industry off shore because designers are forced to design to a minimum and a price and a marketing stratergy,

then 6 months later an off shore company has taken that design to a higher standard and along with it your company's market share.

this is true of electronics and american made cars because the american public will by anything big and flashy, that is all the maketing people care about, not how good it is.

cadilac stopped making big cars and lost market share to suv's so they reluctantly made suv's

harley davidson would have gone many years ago to the onslaut of japanese imports if the ragan administration hadn't stepped in, because they were making the same product for too long with no new, and i mean really new designs.

look at chrysler, most if not all of their product line is imported technology, the same applies to ford, using their european models in the u.s. marketplace.

when did toyota import american technology to japan, answer, just after ww11 and they improved it to a point where it is better than anything else in the marketplace, certainly anything designed "here" for the big three.

china is outstipping the u.s. in major engineering projects world wide, why is that, because profits are all that matters here, but to china its national pride and a footprint in the world, just like it used to be here 50 or so years ago.

if you take the design to its ultimate then you are ready for any and every competitor that is trying to upstage your product and steal your market with a better product.

until american industry understands this, then we are doomed to fail.

the day will come when there really is nothing new, no new inventions or ideas and its not far away folks, most things we see today are just old stuff reworked.

take direct injection, this is what they are selling us now, well go look at a mercedes 300 sl gullwing, no not the new one, the one sterling moss won the mile milia with, yup there it is direct injection, in modern stuff its just electrified.

you might ask why , if its that old, didn't it catch on with other manufacturers, because the average car owner has no idea what is under the hood and carbs are cheap, even to this day, economy is not the main reason americans buy cars.

do you not think that if it weren't for the EPA or CARB, we would be driving gas guzzlers and living in a permanent fog while the rest of the world moved on, then when there was a gas cricise, imports would step in and kill the domestic car market, oh, it already happened, twice.

here in arizona, i have noticed something i did not see in other states i have lived in, this may be a trend affecting the rest of the country, i don't know for sure but everything here is done half assed, yes its done but it could be done better, its like a sort of aperthy.

if, to use your example of a bridge, most of the bridges in america, as you say are designed t "just stand", what happens when they run over their expected life span, fortunately for us, most were designed many years ago and not to "just stand" but to be more than was required at the time, lasting long past their sell by date.

a "that will do for now" attitude has infected everything and people are getting used to it.

sorry for the rant but it is like a desease infecting everything we touch and nobody, especially americans, have any interest in correcting the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 12, 2014, 1:50 pm 
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+1

Surferjohn, sorry for the hijack. Back to your build...

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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 12, 2014, 6:53 pm 
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surferjohnhawaii wrote:
Miatav8 I need people like you telling me all the rediclious things I am doing! Otherwise I'd think I'm right! A few questions. Why are the control arms too narrow? They are as wide as I can make them for their mounting location. I'm an engineer I like extra structural support, probably way extra I know. What is a drilled through venter of the frame tube?

I'm on here to learn, I need all the help I can get!
BTW all i agree, brackets stink.


Put the links as best you can to where they can directly resist the forces of braking and accell.

This photo appeared to show the inner pivots drilled through the frame but I guess they are just sitting on top of it.

The purple link could have a 1/2-13 x 3" LH grade 5 bolt with the head but welded to the tube going to the spherical for an adjustable link without unbolting the spherical. Would cost about $20 to do both sides with nuts and bolts.

Here is a similar example.


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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 12, 2014, 9:14 pm 
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john hennessy wrote:
...and nobody, especially americans, have any interest in correcting the situation.


all Americans? even the Americans on this board?

Me?

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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 13, 2014, 5:16 am 
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john hennessy wrote:
the day will come when there really is nothing new, no new inventions or ideas and its not far away folks, most things we see today are just old stuff reworked
....
sorry for the rant but it is like a desease infecting everything we touch and nobody, especially americans, have any interest in correcting the situation.


Image

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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 13, 2014, 2:06 pm 
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SurferJohn,

assuming you wish to continue the discussion, feel free to ignore posts not relevant to your build. You can also select the red "!" to report off topic and offensive comments.

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Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
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LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 13, 2014, 4:25 pm 
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First thank you all for the help.
second I don't care about rants everyone has them. Personally I agree with some points but disagree with others. I'm married, I'm not easily offended by anyone or anything. I've been working and thus not been on yesterday.
Third fantastic use of the Wtf firefly gif!

Miatav8 that rear frame area is not finished, there is a structural member that go's there in the corner and thus can't move any closer to the frame. Hopefully putting in that piece soon as I finish the rear diff housing 100%. There is a delicate balance in finishing the rear diff area and tranny tunnel reinforcements.

Attached is my plan for the mark 2 rear arms. I have to keep the triangle pointed at the front of the car to keep the shock mount location where it needs to be.

Any other suggestions guys?


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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 13, 2014, 11:28 pm 
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to lay this to rest, i apologise for anything in my posts and anyone who may be offended, i can only state about americans because that is where i am, it may be the same elsewhere but i cannot comment as i am not there although i have been told that it is the same.

while in an ideal world we could design the perfect item, it would seem we are all at the bidding of accountants.

again sorry for the interuption "normal service will resume as soon as possible"

as for the americans on this forum, you know you are more than an average american, if you have ever thought "how can i sore like an eagle while surrounded by these turkeys"


as far as the mk 2 arm, yes you are on the right track, as long as your arms are parallel

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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 18, 2014, 11:15 pm 
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Well hello again all. Here comes a dusey of a post. I have been working a lot and haven't had too much time to work, but I'll have some this week.

First photo is in the current situation in the front section behind the engine. I was worried about frame flex so I ran some analysis on stiffiners and have come up with a solution but would like your opinions as there may be a better way that I haven't thought of.

Let me know some thoughts and opinions.
I'll post more photos when I tack it up this weekend, unless of course you get me some good ideas and comments.

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 19, 2014, 8:20 am 
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Its quite tricky to tell from the photos but triangulation is your friend. The more the better, Regarding the bars that the blue arrows point to. Can you slope them forward so the bottom of the bar is toward the bottom of the photo and the top joins at the same place as the green bars.

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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 19, 2014, 10:00 am 
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I love triangles!
I have 5 he green and blue positioned as they are because the green is engine and steering rack support, and the blue is shock rocker and a arm support. The angles simply don't allow them to come together, I can see how in photos that can be deceiving. Both can be thought of engine bay/tranny/strut bar stiffiners. I will grab more photos as i start building the components I know I need to have installed.
thanks for the input, I'll add more triangles


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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 19, 2014, 6:45 pm 
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It would be easier if I could see the engine and transaxle mounts. Those points and your lca, uca, rocker, and coilover mounting points are where the nodes should be and primary structure. I'll draw something.

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Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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 Post subject: Re: AWD subaru build
PostPosted: November 20, 2014, 8:33 am 
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General idea based on general components. Tubes below and outboard of the lca should be removed. I assume the engine is just sitting on the table. Is that why you added the tube down the top center, to help support the engine because there is only about an inch of crossection to the engine mount brackets underneath? If so, you may want to raise the driveline relative to the chassis for front overhang ground clearance and exhaust clearance. Looks like you could have the wheelbase even shorter if you wished.

In the first few pics, you show the oem lcas which are a good design. Why are you not using those?


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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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