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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 18, 2017, 11:29 pm 
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Yo!
Starting a job over is always a tough call, but I think you made the right decision. If you hadn't decided to "do-over" then for the rest of your life, whenever a Lotus is mentioned, or a kit car or anything "low cost" (original meaning, pre-Ron Champion) then you'd be thinking, "Yeah, I coulda had one of those if I hadn't got all p*ssed off that time."

With most of our cars, the center of gravity for the car is usually the CG of the engine, or within inches of it. If you're a big ol' boy like some of us, the driver's weight might move the CG that-a-way somewhat. Any-hoo, moving the engine lower will definitely lower the CG of the car and will affect the handling. I would think it would improve the handling... Less "leverage" between that CG and the roll center, I'm thinking.

Why do you want to run the car at a 7 inch ride height? I get that you'd be able to run the exhaust underneath, out of the way of ingress/egress (Wanna see my other burnt shin from the last autocross?) but is that it? As much as lowering the engine helps with roll/weight transfer, etc, that higher ride height is gonna work against it somewhat, albeit less than in a "real" car because of the lightweight car around that engine. But still, physics is against you with the taller ride height. Iffen that's what you want to do, then you go for it! I'm just curious, is all...

:cheers:
JDK

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"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 18, 2017, 11:46 pm 
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Thanks, JD. The exhaust is one aspect, keeping the slippery stuff in the pan is another. (This IS New Jersey after all). Since it is going to be a Street Car most of its life, I kind of figured that as long as I kept the original C4 dimensions, I'd be good enough. I know the lower the ride height the better, within reason, but I figured the tradeoff for the exhaust and oil pan clearance was worth the compromise. The rest of the thought process for getting the engine lower was to see if I could clear the hood with the Tuned Port setup and still maintain bottom end clearance. Not a cheap way to do it, but possible. The reason I asked about the roll center was because I remember (or, thought I remember) reading somewhere that if you get cg below the vertical roll center, that it could have some evil effects on handling. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 19, 2017, 8:56 pm 
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I have heard the same thing from a number of sources, and when I glance at the geometry, it makes sense. If the CG gets below the RC, you can get jacking and even more interesting, roll into the corner, rather than away from it. Of course, that might be like driving a side-car rig vs. riding a motorcycle, but I will take the experts word for it that it is a bad thing(TM) and should not be attempted by mortals.

All that said, let us assume that you have a normal V8 of 22-25" height. That puts the CG about a dozen inches above the ride height of the pan. Since even Corvettes probably didn't have 15" roll centers, you are probably well and truly clear.

T

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 19, 2017, 9:15 pm 
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Omterry wrote:
I have heard the same thing from a number of sources, and when I glance at the geometry, it makes sense. If the CG gets below the RC, you can get jacking and even more interesting, roll into the corner, rather than away from it. Of course, that might be like driving a side-car rig vs. riding a motorcycle, but I will take the experts word for it that it is a bad thing(TM) and should not be attempted by mortals.

All that said, let us assume that you have a normal V8 of 22-25" height. That puts the CG about a dozen inches above the ride height of the pan. Since even Corvettes probably didn't have 15" roll centers, you are probably well and truly clear.

T


That's what I gathered Googling it last night. If you take the typical SBC, 4" of that 22" is dead space for the sump, leaving 9.5" as the CG. I must have been in an absolute fog last night, I should have realized that. Even at 9.5", There is no way you are going to get the CG below the RC. Duh! :BH:
I'm think I'm still going to stick with the 7" ride height for now, as when I was playing with Vsusp, I noticed that if you drop the ride height with a good rc, without relocating the upper arms, the rc shot up REAL fast. Maybe I'll shitcan the idea of the exhaust running under the car, and that way I can play with dropping the ride height once everything else is dialed in, and see what the results are. Now to see what kind of sticker shock I'll have when I get the pricing on the 7.5" clutch, flywheel, and bellhousing.....

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 19, 2017, 9:23 pm 
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Today was good though. As is always the case, I think with pretty much everybody, you never get as much done as you hope to. Today, I was in no rush. All I got done was the two hoops for the Scuttle.
Interesting when you introduce the upwards radius on the dash. Even more so when you do that, and then lay it forward 25 deg. As you roll the dash hoop forward, the amount of the radius actually diminishes in the vertical plane. So the forward hoop, which is vertical, requires less of a radius than the initial radius on the dash hoop. So, the weekends total accomplishment: One dash hoop, one firewall side hoop. Cut, bent, rolled, and tacked up on the bench. I'll try to get them finish welded tomorrow night, and at least tacked in situ to see how they are going to look.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 19, 2017, 9:50 pm 
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Two thoughts:

1. That 4" for the sump is at the bottom of the engine. So that should actually increase the CG by 2" or so. I figured intake and valve covers would take up about a similar amount at the top, but who knows. Also, you didn't add the distance the engine is off the ground. Say the CG of the engine itself is 9" above its lowest point. You still have to add the pan-ground height. Say 4" if your pan is 3" below the rails. So, you are still looking at north of 13" CG for the car.
2. You made better progress than me this weekend for sure. Keep puggin buddy. We will both get ourselves a brand new..ish car some day.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 19, 2017, 10:59 pm 
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Omterry wrote:
Two thoughts:

1. That 4" for the sump is at the bottom of the engine. So that should actually increase the CG by 2" or so. I figured intake and valve covers would take up about a similar amount at the top, but who knows. Also, you didn't add the distance the engine is off the ground. Say the CG of the engine itself is 9" above its lowest point. You still have to add the pan-ground height. Say 4" if your pan is 3" below the rails. So, you are still looking at north of 13" CG for the car.
2. You made better progress than me this weekend for sure. Keep puggin buddy. We will both get ourselves a brand new..ish car some day.


I was actually only considering the engine itself, not with any regard to the chassis. But you are right, I really don't have anything to worry about really.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 20, 2017, 9:57 am 
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are you using the small table top woodward bender? I thought the round dies only went up to 7/8". If so, how do you like it otherwise, I've been thinking about picking one up. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 20, 2017, 10:24 am 
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hfmaxi wrote:
are you using the small table top woodward bender? I thought the round dies only went up to 7/8". If so, how do you like it otherwise, I've been thinking about picking one up. Thanks.

It is the Woodward Fab wfb2. Goes up to 2". Can get 90 deg., 120 deg., and 180 deg. dies, as well as dies for square tubing. This is actually the second job I have used it on. I did a bunch of ss tubing for a starch process cooker, saved me 14 welds and paid for itself. Good product. Nice smooth bends. I love it.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 22, 2017, 5:45 am 
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Anyone else having problems posting?

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 22, 2017, 5:48 am 
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Monday took a few "Mental Health" hours in the morning. Got the dash and firewall hoops finish welded and tacked in place. Glad I went with the radius on the dash hoop. A bit more work, but worth the effort. I like it. Continued Tuesday afternoon with the batwing hangers.

Can't upload any pics, get a 500 error, can't handle request. Anyone else?
Edit: Problem was default image size on phone got changed. Photos too large to upload. Scaled images, now works fine!


Attachments:
File comment: Side view, dash laid forward 25*
Hoops2.jpg
Hoops2.jpg [ 1.29 MiB | Viewed 896 times ]
File comment: With original dash layout. I like the radius much better.
Hoops1.jpg
Hoops1.jpg [ 696.48 KiB | Viewed 896 times ]

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Last edited by Dismantalus on March 23, 2017, 5:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 22, 2017, 8:51 am 
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Quote:
Can't upload any pics, get a 500 error, can't handle request. Anyone else?
Attachment:
calvin-and-hobbes.jpg
calvin-and-hobbes.jpg [ 77.87 KiB | Viewed 934 times ]
Nope... :mrgreen:

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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 22, 2017, 9:23 am 
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GonzoRacer wrote:
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Can't upload any pics, get a 500 error, can't handle request. Anyone else?
Attachment:
calvin-and-hobbes.jpg
Nope... :mrgreen:

Thanks JD, I needed a bit of humor! I think the default picture size on my phone got changed, and the files are too big. I'll try again tonight.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 28, 2017, 5:34 am 
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Well, it was a GOOD weekend! Finally got the batwing located and hung for the rear suspension. Two more gussets to tie it all together, and fabricate the forward support for the pumpkin. Then I can see about what minor mods I have to make to do the boot. It would appear that the batwing in its current location will kick the outer tubes for the boot out at too shallow an angle. I don't think it will be that big of a deal overall. I think before I finalize the boot design, I should probably decide on the fuel tank. It looks like, depending on how tall I go, I can get between a 15-20 gallon tank in there, with a small storage area between the tank and bulkhead. That will get me a decent range. Pictures to follow

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: May 6, 2017, 8:42 pm 
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Dang, been over a month! Like so many of us, so many times, life and work get in the way. Except for a select few on here that are able to fast track this stuff, you know who you are... :mrgreen:
We all know the expression, paint yourself into a corner...well I kind of did that on the rear batwing hangar. To be able to drop the entire rear from the bottom, I need two inches for the batwing to clear the hangars. Problem is, I only have one inch before the nose of the differential hits the chassis. Ruh Roh!. So last night I made a pot of Coffee, and had myself a job meeting with me, myself, and I. After a while (I think it was three cups of the High Test), the solution presented itself. Instead of welding the hangar tabs on, I'll drill through the tabs and tubes in two places on both sides, weld a sleeve in, and bingo, I now only need about 3/4" to be able to drop the rear suspension completely intact. One battle won! Also, I was online looking for someone that had a set of 2:59 gears for the Dana 36. As we know, the street rod guys always go with, say 3:55 and up gearing. Difficult to find them going the other way. I currently have 3:08 ring and pinion. Sooo, perusing the 'ol interwebs, I found a company in Miami that does a lot of oem work. I explained what I was doing, and he just went 0-100 with numbers. He couldn't have been using a calculator, he was just rattling the numbers off too fast! Right out of his head. Not only did he have the 2:59's in stock, but if I sent him my center section, he would do the following: Disassemble it, magnaflux the case and the carrier. Install all new bearings, seals, lap the ring and pinion on a cnc machine, install the ring and pinion. For under $500.00 dollars. What was really interesting, he calculated that with the approx. 325hp, borg warner t10 trans (no overdrive), and the 2:59 r&p, at 1800lbs. estimated, she should be good for about 153 mph. Now, we all know about the aero properties of these cars (or lack therof), so that obviously ain't going to happen with stock bodywork. But just knowing the potential is there was kind of exciting. Oh, and the r&p is rated for over 500hp, so there is no chance I'll grenade that puppy! Tomorrow I'm clearing off the acorn platen, moving the frame from the build table to the platen, and clamping her down solid so I can do a bunch of finish welding, so nothing shifts when I set her on the jack stands to mate the front cradle in place.
The other thing that looks like it will work out well, is that if I go with the Haynes nose cone, it will fit my front end properly, and only have to add some material to the bottom possibly. No widening, cutting, etc.
It is shaping up to be a good week ahead!

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