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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: January 29, 2017, 9:50 am 
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So once again, I am reminded why you need to know your limits when you are tired. Nothing to do with the build, per se, but I didn't get home from work Friday night until about 10:00 pm. That after about a 70 hour week. A customer wanted to do a welding certification Saturday morning, so I said I'd do it. Driving home up Rt. 15 afterward, I'm getting really tired, and I think to myself, I'm going to stop at Quick Chek about 3/4 of a mile up the road, take a nap, and then get some coffee. Too late. Ten seconds later, I nodded off, and introduced myself to the guardrail on the drivers side. Fortunately, I just grazed it, and what looked like a crease down the whole side of the truck was, in reality a couple of small creases, and mostly a big, long scuff. I got home, with about another 10 or so hours worth of work to do, and I just said "Screw It"..Whatever does not get done this weekend, waits until next week. I made my coffee, and plopped down in front of the Computer, and spent the rest of the afternoon perusing various builds and topics on the forum. Great stress reliever for me. I'm going through one of the post's on frames, and I see a reference to Lonnie-S's build, and how the Haynes engine compartment is actually larger than the McSorley +442e. That got me to thinking, and one thing led to another....So I'm going to go back and modify the front of the chassis to basically mimic the Haynes dimensions from the footwell forward. That will give me a much better clearance for the "R" tube to go from the front of the chassis to the firewall, without crowding the a/c delete pulley and brac*et and keep the tube 1-1/4" instead of reducing the size for clearance. Fast forward to this morning, feeling a bit better having gotten some sleep, and I grab the 'ol cup of Joe, head out to the Man Cave and start eyeballing the chassis for the upcoming mods (This is why I did not weld the chassis solid yet. I KNEW something like this would come up..). That's when the caffein must have kicked in. I had one of those "Forest for the Trees" moments! I'm looking at the C4 cradle, again thinking how nice it would be to use it, and it hit me. I CAN use it. If I cut the lower frame square with a crossmember at the appropriate point, the cradle is flat across and just below the lower control arms. I can weld a piece of tubing across the flat, slide the whole cradle into place, and stitch it to the new crossmember in the frame. Here's the beautiful part. It puts the lower control arms 2.25" above the bottom of the frame. Sets the upper control arms and provides the mounts. Gives me a .3" to .5" "Y" migration. Motor mounts are built in, may just have to lower the holes an inch or so. It moves the engine / trans assembly forward from my original intention by about 4" (I was back about that much from what would be normal anyway) , but nothing a little adapter to the shifter won't take care of. It moves the front axle centerline back by 4", reducing my original wheelbase from 94" to 90". Takes care of the Rack and Pinion, and EVERYTHING stays as Chevrolet built it, meaning minimal bumpsteer, etc. I think that the early C4's had an excessive amount of anti-dive so I'll have to check, and if need be I can just modify the upper mount accordingly. I've got about another week of organizing, cleaning, and getting the two last projects that we had at the old shop before I moved it. So, next weekend, it's GO TIME! Between the front cradle, and the info Seattle Tom got for me on the C4 rear, there should be great progress starting next weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: January 29, 2017, 12:09 pm 
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Location: Carlsbad, California, USA
Hey, I'm happy for your success with the chassis, but sorry about your close encounter with the guard rail. Those latter experiences create those moments in life that put things into immediate perspective, I find

I'll be looking forward to seeing your modifications.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: January 29, 2017, 9:27 pm 
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Man, close call. I'm glad that the accident didn't end up being a major event. Take care of yourself.

I'm building a frame using C4 suspension. I looked at using the front cradle but ended up incorporating the suspension and steering mounts in the frame I'm building.

I wish that I had your welding skills!


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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: January 30, 2017, 6:59 am 
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stinger wrote:
Man, close call. I'm glad that the accident didn't end up being a major event. Take care of yourself.

I'm building a frame using C4 suspension. I looked at using the front cradle but ended up incorporating the suspension and steering mounts in the frame I'm building.

I wish that I had your welding skills!

Actually, Stinger, it's not a question of welding skills. Anybody on this forum that is welding their own stuff up can do what I am doing. This is more a matter of being able to look at something, and see what it is going to take in your minds eye. Kind of like electricity or steam. You have to be able to look at what you are immediately doing, and what is that going to affect downstream. I know it is going to shorten my wheelbase 4", I know it moves my engine / trans up 4". From measuring, it looks like if I use the motor mounts as is, engine will be 2" higher than I want. Only thing to do is tack everything up, and see what I missed (or didn't). I suspect I may have missed something, but until it is in place, it's just guessing. If it doesn't work, I'll be in your boat and welding brackets onto the frame directly. It's only steel! A lot of my work is fabricating petroleum skids and equipment, and we rarely get a print. It's an isometric drawing, some basic dimensions, and the question: Can you build this? I've learned to just get everything that can just be tacked, tacked, and have someone approve what has been done so far. Weld that up solid, and move on. These cars aren't any different in my world view.
Do you have a build log? Pictures?

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: January 30, 2017, 7:10 am 
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Never mind Stinger, I found it. Looks like we have very similar builds.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: February 6, 2017, 7:03 am 
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So, with last weeks events behind me, Saturday I had lunch with Omterry, we had a look at his progress, and shot the crap for a few hours. Sunday was demo and rebuild time. Everyone says sometimes it's one step forward, two steps back? Well, let me tell you friends, Sunday felt like TEN steps backwards! Not that I'm complaining. It's what happens when you change horses mid-stream! By deciding to open up the front of the engine bay, I had to cut out all of the cross supports, cut the tacks on the tops and insides of the outer rails from the scuttle forward, and move the rails outward. Changed the McSorley +442e angles from 10 degrees to 8.7 degrees. I picked up two inches at the front of the engine, just where the infamous "R" tube needs to be. On the bottom rails, I left the other two angles alone from mid-engine compartment forward as they were. I tacked in two angle braces at the front of the top rails and got them tacked back at the scuttle. Top rails are now ready for final welding, whenever that is. I laid out the bottom rails for the great shortening to install the C4 cradle. Cut and tacked in a new crossmember for the tube welded to the cradle to attach to.
While I was at it, I also changed the rear radius rod mounts. They were too far rearward, which resulted in the back wheels being too far aft, like only about two or three inches of boot extending past them. I thought it would look "Off", so out they came. Fabricated two new sets from 1/8" by 6" flat stock, moved them 3" further forward from the back of the frame, and eliminated the actual "M1" and "M2" tubes as these two assemblies make up about three or four times the reinforcement area. I'd have gotten the rear boxes back in, and maybe the front cradle in place if I didn't have to spend about 4 hours chasing a wire feeder problem with the Mig gun. A problem of my own making, as it turns out :BH: . The old Millermatic 200 that I had been using used to be fine with using, say an .035" tip with .023" wire. Never complained. Now I have the Lincoln Power Mig 350mp, and the Miller is in storage. I was having feeding problems up the wazoo! Stubbing, burnback, felt like it was going from short circuit into a spray, etc. Went back through the whole system, chaecked EVERYTHING, and while I was at it, changed the wire back to .035", which is the smallest tips I have on hand. Low and behold, everything works just fine! I hate it when that happens. I'll have to pick up some .023" tips today in my travels. If my measurements are correct, with the front cradle in place, the upper control arm mounts should end up just inside, and below the top frame rail. I may need to "trim" the top of the upper mounts, where they used to bolt to the body of the C4 to clear, but only about a 1/4" or so. Once I get it in place, I can figure out my reinforcements and load paths. Onward and upward!

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: February 7, 2017, 6:57 pm 
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Well, it would seem that the Welding Gods are not smiling on me this week. I picked up some .023" tips, swapped the wire out, changed the rollers, and tried some test pieces. Seemed to work "ok" for a few minutes, but then back to stubbing, burnback, sh*itty performance, etc.... So, put the .035 back in, change rollers and tip, fire it up, and it works great. Now, the only thing that I can see that is different, is that the .035" wire is Lincoln SuperArc L56. ER70s-6. It is a great wire, deoxidizes well, good wetting at the toes. I've used this wire for a lot of different things, and it never fails to perform. The .023" on the other hand, is, I believe a "Radnor" or equivalent garbage product from China. When I picked it up at Airgas, they did not have the L56 in the .023, but I wanted to at least get started tacking things up back in April, so I grabbed it, figuring I'd get a spool of the L56 later on if necessary. In the 'Ol Millermatic 200, it worked just fine. No real complaints. This Lincoln Power Mig, on the other hand, appears to not like it. Not one bit. I've run into this before with stick electrodes, E7018 to be exact, and found that the "Offshore" stuff really can be some garbage. The problem is, no one seems to stock either .023" or .025 L56 wire. I found a 12 pound spool on Amazon, so I'm going to order it, along with the .025" tips, and guide, and see if it makes a difference. For anyone wondering why I'm going to such an effort to make this work in the pulse mode, it makes for significantly less heat input to the joints, thus less warping. It also can be adjusted to give a nice, flat profile, that almost looks as good as a Tig joint. We'll see what happens. Worst case, I'll have to drag the Millermatic 200 out of storage for this light tubing work. Like I need ANOTHER redundant welding machine in the Garage to take up space... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: February 8, 2017, 9:09 am 
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I would bet that 90% of all welder feed problems is the wire and not the roller adjustment. The cheaper wires are reduced "drawn down" a lot quicker, which causes necking of the diameter. Try this; run your fringers over the surface of the wire. If you feel any difference in the wire. Through it in the trash. You are just asking for T@#$%. I have had good luck with Hobart wire in the .023" size from Farm and Tractor.
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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: February 8, 2017, 11:36 am 
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Actually, Dave I established that is not actually a "feed" problem, but that it won't establish and maintain a stable arc. I had someone watch the feed as I lulled the trigger. My guess is that once I get the L56 in it, the problem will go away. You are right about the Hobart wire, it is a good quality as well. And thanks for taking the time go comment. Always appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: February 8, 2017, 1:29 pm 
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I think Home Depot sells the Lincoln L56 in .025...
I try to support the local welding shop but if they don't have what you want.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: February 8, 2017, 1:33 pm 
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I saw that too. None of the ones near me keep it on the shelf. I'll order it on Amazon tonight, and try again when it comes in. I try to support the local suppliers as well, but two weeks is a bit ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: February 11, 2017, 10:39 am 
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Actually found one of my suppliers that had the .025" Lincoln L-56 Superarc in stock. Tips too!. So after I finished my last job for the day, I nipped on over to North Brunswick, and picked it up. Of course, that put me SQUARE in the middle of the parking lot known as "Traffic" in Central and North Jersey! 2-1/2 hours to get home. :ack: I hate traffic.... Anyway, got up first thing this morning, pulled out the Power Mig, and put in the .025" L-56. Set the machine for Pulse, turned on the gas, and....she works beautifully. Spent about 10 minutes playing with a few settings, especially the arc control. Set that at the max of 1.5. That setting goes from .5 to 1.5, and it makes the weld go from a very narrow, peaked weld at .5, to a very flat, wider weld at 1.5. The picture kind of says it all. This was on the outside corner of one of the radius rod boxes that I made "Too Tall" when I wanted to move the rear in about 3". So, it's a perfect test coupon! This is 1/8" flat bar, so I'll have to do a couple of test pieces with the 14 gauge tubing, but you can see just how nice this works. Now, if I can just get my hands a bit steadier. Maybe a bit less caffeine.... :roll: Now that we're back in the game with the welding machine, today and tomorrow I'm going to see if I can get the front cradle at least all tacked in place, and the rear batwing hung. By Sunday afternoon, we may actually have a roller, God willing and the creeks don't rise, as they say!


Attachments:
PulesMigWeld.jpg
PulesMigWeld.jpg [ 277.57 KiB | Viewed 1218 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: February 12, 2017, 3:10 am 
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Dismantalus wrote:
Now, if I can just get my hands a bit steadier.


I worked for a pipeline company for 33+ years before retiring. Many years ago, I knew an old welder (he had burnt miles and miles of rod) who kept a bottle of whiskey in his locker. I had asked why, considering this was a no no at work, and he replied "if it's a critical weld and I need steady hands, one pull on the bottle and my hands are as steady as ever". God bless his soul.

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http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14030


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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: February 12, 2017, 9:00 pm 
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@horchoha

I gotta try that one, Perry. Nothin' else has helped. :lol:

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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 Post subject: Re: SBC +442e build
PostPosted: March 18, 2017, 7:35 pm 
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Wow, it's been over a month since my last post. Quick update. I rolled the build table over to set the front subframe in place and see how it fit. I knew I would have to trim the upper mounts a bit and reweld a piece of 1/8" flatbar over the cut off pieces. What I didn't expect though, was that the front of the chassis itself was way the f...well, way off. As in not even close. I went back over everything, and none of the tacks were broken or out of shape. Turns out, the measuring implements I was using were from a time, many years ago, when a certain fella I worked with was, shall we say "hard" on tools. The squares were not, the level was not, etc. Needless to say, they went in the scrap bin. Bought some new good quality stuff. Yep, chassis is way off. Trapezoidal, out of square, etc. Everything except the passenger area. Somehow, that ended up perfect. :shock: Really disheartening to say the least. My own fault for not double checking my tools. :BH: :BH: , and one more :BH: for good measure. So, it was time for Me, Myself, and I to have a "Come to Jesus" meeting. Throw in the towel, or suck it up, basically start over, and keep going. I was in a funk for a week. Decided that I really did want to do this, so out came the cutoff wheel on the 4" grinder, and off came the front of the chassis. Tubing won't go to waste, I'll use it for the triangulation pieces. Bought another length of tubing for the new front tubes, measured, cut, tacked, double and triple checked as I went along, and now we have a new front on the chassis. Also made the top an additional 1/4"higher to make sure the top of the chassis cleared the 'Vette sub frame. Plumb, square, etc. Got my rear hangar points figured out for the rear batwing, my co-conspirator will help me set that tomorrow. In the meantime, I picked up a HF tubing roller to make the curves for the dash and firewall hoops. Rolled a gentle curve from 1" .083 tubing, longer than I need by about 4" per side. Cut two 18" pcs. of the same tubing and used the Woodward tubing bender to make the two vertical pcs. of the dash hoop by leaving 6" before the bend, and proceeded to make a bend of 84 deg., on a 3" Center. Set them on the floor just to get a visual of about how it would look and transition, I think It is perfect. 1/2 hour to cut, roll, and bend the pieces. I'll cut to size and tack them up tomorrow as well. If that all works out tomorrow, I plan on taking a couple of "Mental Health" days, maybe Wed. and Thurs. to tie in the front end, and then start doing some of the final welding on the chassis.

I also have a question for those out there that have dealt with this kind of stuff before. I'm planning on running my ride height a bit higher than most, at 7" (About what a C4 Vette is). with the suspension set pretty much as it was in the C4, with only a couple of inches longer on the wheelbase, I'm thinking of the following:
1) 7" allows me to run the exhaust under and out the back of the car.
2) I can drop the engine and trans down to about 2" under the frame, and with 3" of suspension compression, still have 2" of clearance.
Doing a bit of research, I also found the following:
1) I can pick up 4" on the engine height if I dry sump the SBC. That would leave the bellhousing and flywheel as the limiting factor, and it just happens to be the same height as the stock Vette oil pan.
2) Quarter Master makes a 7.5" Clutch, Bellhousing, and Flywheel for the '86 and up SBC. I was considering going with a lighter flywheel anyway, so if I dry sump, I can pick up whatever the difference in the bellhousing size is for dropping the engine as much as another 3" or so. That would allow me to basically drop the engine 3" or 4 " and still have the oil pan just at the bottom of the chassis.
The only thing sticking in the back of my mind though, is if I get the engine center line down that low, how will it make the handling change. I think the stock C4's had a front vertical roll center of around 3.5 or 4 inches. In my current layout, the engine is already about 2" lower than the original mounts in the subframe.

As always, thoughts, comments, and criticisms welcome!


Attachments:
DashHoop.jpg
DashHoop.jpg [ 1.49 MiB | Viewed 1071 times ]

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