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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: February 20, 2023, 7:10 pm 
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All you need is a aftermarket mount kit with the right size bushing.

Here is one for an early Mustang. It just requires a couple of drilled holes.

Attachment:
Rear sway bar mount.jpg


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PostPosted: February 20, 2023, 11:29 pm 
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@horchoha
Of course you could have tried: "...almost as intimately as I know you",
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PostPosted: February 21, 2023, 6:51 am 
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A locost/Seven replica puts the floor much lower and closer to the rear axle than just about anything else. There is not enough clearance for the end of the bar and an endlink without cutting into the seating area. This is for an oem bar with no mods to make it suitable for a 1700 lb car.

There is also the potential to hook something with an axle bottom mount, forward pointing arm and the oem arms usually have welded mounts on the axle. Oem axle top mounts are bent to work with oem damper and spring placement that may not clear your config.

The bars are for fine tuning the handling and take away the independence of an IRS or IFS. A rear bar generally should not be as effective as the front in a rwd car. Because the bars mentioned are for mustangs and camaros that weigh around 2800-3500 lbs, they are too thick to begin with for the arm length. The arms would need to be longer than normal to reduce the effectiveness. The rear bar should be thinner than the front or not equipped with a rear bar. A typical Caterham stand-alone (not part of the UCA) front bar is only about a 1/2 inch thick. Bigger front bar = less roll, less independent IFS, less traction over rougher surfaces, and a rougher ride.

If designed to fit early enough in the build, a thicker bar, modified with extra long arms to compensate is obviously heavier than an appropriate thickness bar but if you are trying to balance out an oem from bar, it makes sense with a single vehicle donor, though it may not be as balanced as a single, thinner bar up front.

Stiffer = greater bar od (major effect)/solid vs hollow (minor effect)/ narrower width/shorter arm.

I'm just happy to share my thoughts and will enjoy watching whichever direction the wind takes you. :cheers:

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PostPosted: February 21, 2023, 12:51 pm 
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@BostonWill

Thanks for that example, Thom. The bushings appear to be split (at least on one side) and that actually provides some help for the design I'd been visualizing. You should be able to attach them to the bar even if you can't slip them on from the ends.

@MV8
Thanks for that info. Today is going to be a grinding, wire brushing and painting day as I clean up all the welds I've done on the boot of the car. There are a fair number that have to be flattened for the body panels. This is not going to be a fun day. :ack:

Then, I'm going to have a few days inside during the rain, so I'll have some time to sketch out some ideas. I'll likely post some for criticism & input here.

Cheers all,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: February 21, 2023, 2:20 pm 
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Not a big fan of swaybars. There, I said it. I didn't put them on my car and don't regret it one bit. For many years I have disliked cars that pitch just as much (if not more) than cars that roll. Whatever springs it takes to keep pitch down to minimum usually ends up being enough spring to keep the roll to a minimum. My car is nicely flat at all times and rides reasonably. That is to say that it is firm but not harsh (harsh ride is usually attributable to shocks). I think swaybars are a great tool for last minute trimming for the current track conditions and should remain small, but the overall behavior of the car should come from a combination of everything else. For a street car, I don't see the fuss.

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PostPosted: February 22, 2023, 12:19 pm 
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@RTz
That's some interesting input, Ron. If it's working for you, it's working, so good on ya.

Right now I'm more interested in making provision for the rear anti-roll bar rather than making one and installing it. I'll be doing the same for the front of the car.

At some point in the near future when my build is on it's wheels and I've selected springs and shocks (coilovers) then I'll start running simulations of my suspension in Suspension Analyzer on my workstation. It allows you to build the front and rear suspensions independently, which I've done, but then couple the two together for analysis and see how they work together. I don't have all the data to do that now. I don't have corner weights, actual center of gravity, spring rates, etc., etc. When I do, the simulations should give me an idea of what I'll need front and back, if anything.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: February 28, 2023, 11:22 am 
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Work, welding, grinding, rotary wire brushing continues as the rain storms permit. It has been a very wet winter for us this year. It was coming down in buckets this morning. There may be a window of opportunity to put some rattle can primer on the bare metal I've exposed later on today.

In the meantime, I'm trying to do some design work and acquire some components needed for the boot of the car. In looking at the anti-roll bar situation at rear, and what I'd like to enclose at the boot, I believe I've figured out the routing of the dual exhaust system.

I've wanted to have the exhausts exit at the rear, and not have big mufflers where the driver and passenger enter and exit. I believe I have a plan that will accomplish that now. If anything photo worthy develops, I'll post pictures.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 6, 2023, 12:14 pm 
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Work continues. The near inaccessibility of some of the unwelded joints is forcing me into "on the job training" for out of position welds. It's the old "necessity is the Muther" thing. No real boo-boos yet, so that's good.

Nothing is really picture worthy yet. I've been working at the rear of the car a lot, and it's given me some time looking at several outstanding tasks. I hope to have a gas tank soon. I have a kit for mounting the battery at rear and have welded tabs in for the P-clips for the fuel lines and battery cable through the central tunnel. I'll be in position to start some of that work soon.

There are some routing issues still unsolved, primarily running lines to the rear for lights, fuel pump, and (possibly) a grounding harness. I'm thinking I want the main grounding lug (buy?, make?) at the back for simplicity as that will be close to the battery. Another major consideration is where to mount the donor's electrical distribution box, which I've saved.

I really don't know squat about electrical systems, so I'll need to educate myself there. I do have a couple of reference books on the subject. I just need to read them and make a plan. I believe I'll be running all electrical cables above the top of the tunnel, but will need a scheme to create decorative trim panels to shield/hide them. Here is a super simple example (top most panel in photo) taken from a YouTube video.
Attachment:
Simple Crowned Panel.jpg


Later,


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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 10, 2023, 12:17 pm 
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As of last evening, everything that can be welded is welded. I've now got two days off. Today for a planned visit with friends and tomorrow due to rain. There are only two items left to get this build on its wheels. They are the chassis-side coilover mounts, and creating an adjustable coilover stand-in to go between those mounts and the lower control arms. I'll tackle the coilover mounts soon. The coilover stand-ins I've already completed at rear, so it's just a matter of some shop time making two more a little longer than those.

The engine, transmission and rear axle have already been fitted, so the only thing left to do in the driveline is the driveshaft. I've got a local shop that will do that for me, but I need to get them the correct end to end measurement, which will require having the engine, transmission and rear axle in place. That will be done post rotisserie.

There are a number of areas I want to tackle before taking the chassis off the rotisserie. Namely the body panels, fuel tank, fuel lines, brake lines, battery mounting, steering shaft route and scuttle structure. I've already done some basic work on the scuttle structure design and mounting infrastructure. However, I think it's going be on the rotisserie for while yet.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 12, 2023, 7:58 am 
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Lonnie - this youtuber has some really good videos explaining how to wire electrical circuits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io_i9016o10


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PostPosted: March 12, 2023, 12:34 pm 
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@Sean in CT

Thank you, Sean. I watched that particular video and liked it. So, I subscribed to his channel. He has some other relevant videos too.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 13, 2023, 11:48 pm 
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There was no rain today, so I had in a decent shop day. The rain returns tomorrow for two days. That makes the next physical work day this Thursday, but I'll work indoors on other Locost design issues.

There's lots to do, but I settled on getting the Lower Control Arms (LCAs) mounted so I can mark out the center point of the chassis-side coilover mounts, which I'll be designing and fabricating shortly. I want those completed, and the coilover stand-ins done in order to get this build on its wheels when it comes off the rotisserie.

I was warned, the suspension brackets and possibly the LCAs will likely move a little after welding. That proved to be true. It wasn't much, but just enough so that the driver's LCA would not mount without removing some material from the poly bushings. The photo below (although on the passenger side) illustrates the point.
Attachment:
DSC06239.JPG

I just used my big belt sander to take off some material, and poof, there you go.
Attachment:
DSC06249.JPG

Both LCAs did eventually fit
Attachment:
DSC06237.JPG

Attachment:
DSC06242.JPG

One thing I was anxious to check is the amount of droop the LCAs could take without the rear arm of the LCA hitting the mounting bracket. I was counting on 3 inches minimum, but the CAD model said I'd have more room. I needed to measure and find out.

I knew the inclination of the flat plate of the LCAs would be at 17 degrees when at ride height, so I set them there with the aid of an adjustable stand and measured distance from the outermost edge of the plate to the shop floor. It was 37-5/8". Then I let the LCA hang by itself, which put the rear arm into contact with the rear lower mounting bracket. Measuring to the shop floor again, it was 30-3/8, which gave me over 7" - more than I'd ever need as the coilovers would never extend that far without failing.
Attachment:
DSC06245.JPG

Attachment:
DSC06244.JPG

I tried to set up a quick and dirty way to determine the center point of the upper coilover mount, using a long ruler set on edge and some magnets but it was a little Micky Mouse and didn't give consistent results. I'll need to make a better setup to be really confident in my results.
Attachment:
DSC06247.JPG

There was a question about possible collisions between the inner tie rod and the LCA cross bracing. I believe my adjustments to the suspension layout eliminated that risk, but will need the upper control arms, and the steering rack, and tie rods in place to check that later on post rotisserie.

Cheers,


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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 14, 2023, 1:59 am 
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Looking good Lonnie.
For upper coilover mount location I used a piece of square tube with a precision mount hole drilled through it both ends, I made it the same length of the shock at ride height and mounted the upper br@cket to it to weld it in position on the frame.
For the a arm bushing mounts I would have put a bottle jack between the 2 and tweaked the arm back to original, I've also spread the welded mounts a bit if needed.

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'If man built it, man can fix it'
"No one ever told me I couldn't do it."
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Perry's Locost Super Che7enette Build
Perry's TBird Based 5.0L Super 7 L.S.O
Perry's S10 Super 7 The 3rd
Perry's 4th Build The Topolino 500 (Little Mouse) Altered
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PostPosted: March 14, 2023, 1:10 pm 
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@horchoha

Thanks for the comments, Perry. I'm still experimenting (in my brain & on paper) with the configuration of the coilover mounts. There is a setup on one of the "R" series Caterhams I like a lot. My problem is being able to weld the seam inside the mount. That issue has come home in the series of welds I just finished. Some arrangements set up "ideal" relationships between the chassis tubes, but were a total bugger to weld.

I'll try a couple more fabricating ideas using cardboard before I commit. I'd like to avoid cantilever in the mounts if I can.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 14, 2023, 1:20 pm 
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Lonnie, as you know, I built two cars. In both, I tried real hard to weld every edge of every tube, and in both cases, missed a few, which only became apparent after it was back from powdercoat. You might set aside 30 minutes during the coming rain to examine every side of every tube junction!

Oh, and if you're going with powdercoating it, I highly recommend North County Powdercoat, in Vista. I think they may still offer pickup and delivery, which I used when I built the trailer for Kimini.

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