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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: March 19, 2011, 10:27 am 
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Warren Nethercote wrote:
Your shop crane won't reach you say, but is this a car where they normally drop engines out the bottom? If the clearances look fine, lower the front down so the oil pan sits on something, disconnect everything and then lift the front of the car up - then slide out the engine and gearbox. Unless your shop crane is tiny it should be able to lift the front of an engine and suspensionless Mustang.

This might be an all-wet idea, but maybe not. But not as much fun as applying a sawsall ....


Thanks for the innovative approach, Warren. Yes, some do take the engine out the bottom by removing what is called the K member (a large sub-frame) plus the cross member at the transmission. I looked at doing it, but it's actually more complex in terms of balancing the components and the weights involved (lifting a 450 lb. engine and transmission versus a 2700-2900 lb. chassis). I'm working alone and I try to keep things as simple as possible.

I've just run into some unexpected issues like the shop crane. If the shop crane was longer you'd be seeing photos of my engine and transmission by now. I also thought I could avoid dismantling the top end of the engine, which has 70% of the sensors, many electro-mechanical parts plus vacuum activators, etc. That may be unavoidable now, which is a shame, since I'll have to put it all back together for the mockup to see where things sit vis-a-vi the nose, hood, scuttle, etc.

Oh well, my labor costs are negligible; mostly coffee and cookies.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 19, 2011, 10:37 am 
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my labor costs are negligible; mostly coffee and cookies


Man, if I'd known you had coffee and cookies, I'd have come over and helped out!

Is some combination of "above" and "below" possible, without taking the front of the car apart? First, set the car back on its wheels, jack up the engine/trans from below till it's clear of the various mounts, prop it up on "stuff" (like your wheel stands, only bigger/taller) and then slide the car back a bit, pick the motor up with the crane? Did any of that make sense?

Alternately, can you dis-assemble the front end, removing bumpers, grill, etc and get enough reach with your crane? (I bet you've tried that already, haven't you?)

We're amateurs. Top Gear would say, "You're a man in a shed building a car." No disrespect meant to you, but they have a point... This kind of delay/headache happens to all of us. Don't let it get you down, just keep banging away at it. You/we will figger it out... Eventually!
:cheers:
JDK
PS-What kind of cookies you got?

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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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PostPosted: March 19, 2011, 2:14 pm 
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GonzoRacer wrote:

Man, if I'd known you had coffee and cookies, I'd have come over and helped out!

Is some combination of "above" and "below" possible, without taking the front of the car apart? First, set the car back on its wheels, jack up the engine/trans from below till it's clear of the various mounts, prop it up on "stuff" (like your wheel stands, only bigger/taller) and then slide the car back a bit, pick the motor up with the crane? Did any of that make sense?

Alternately, can you dis-assemble the front end, removing bumpers, grill, etc and get enough reach with your crane? (I bet you've tried that already, haven't you?)

We're amateurs. Top Gear would say, "You're a man in a shed building a car." No disrespect meant to you, but they have a point... This kind of delay/headache happens to all of us. Don't let it get you down, just keep banging away at it. You/we will figger it out... Eventually!
:cheers:
JDK
PS-What kind of cookies you got?


Now, that idea about lowering the car and raising the transmission and engine is a heck of a good one, JD. I'm going to seriously, seriously look at that. The only things I can foresee as problems are interference with the shifter base (what's left when you take out the shift lever and boot) and the transmission tunnel. They are close together and the transmission may have to be lowered, not raised.

The motor mount studs go through the K frame about 1-3/4" to 2", so the engine will have to be lifted that high (not a challenge) while the tranny may have to drop down about that much. The angle should be about 4 inches drop over 36 inches of run - not too bad, maybe 6-7 degrees. I'll measure and see.

By the way, this weekends cookies are extra large Raisin Oatmeal and White Chocolate Pecan from a local bakery plus some very good store-bought Rice Crispy/Marshmallow bars. My wife felt sorry for me 'cause I was so disappointed on Friday afternoon. Good thing I'm back under the car tomorrow. I don't think I''ll fit next week. :D

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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 Post subject: Eating the Elephant
PostPosted: March 25, 2011, 4:49 pm 
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Long story short, the engine and transmission are out. The suspension pieces remain the only large items to do and they will be small change compared to the engine and transmission, which took some doing. After noodling it all over and making some very careful calculations, I found a way to go in from the side and get the engine up and over the fenders with and estimated 1/4 to 1/2 inch to spare depending on how much the lifting straps stretched. As it turned out they hardly stretched at all and we (my wife operated the crane hydraulics) had a full inch to spare.

The engine proved to be visually taller and wider when out in the open than I had anticipated. It looked so small in that cavern usually occupied by a 5.0L V8. Like a man eating an elephant, I needed to take on removing the major mechanicals in small pieces, so the T5 transmission came out first. I could only find one rental yard locally that had a transmission jack and it was ancient, but worked well.

One thing that surprised me was the size of the ventilated front disc brakes. They are huge and these aren't even the large Cobra brakes, just everyday Mustang ones. I don't think stopping will be an issue. The rear brakes are discs too.

The factory exhaust headers are pretty nice. However, I suspect the exit will be too far aft to be useful in the Locost. But, that's why I'm doing a mock-up. Let's see what will really work in the chassis. On the whole I am very pleased with the donor. I believe I will be able to reuse a huge collection of items.

Tonight we are celebrating our small victory. My wife was really a sport to come out in the cold garage and help me. She's not mechanical and the whole thing looked very scary to her, especially with that engine hanging in the straps high above the garage floor. However, she was a really big help. I'm taking her out to diner as a thank you, which is where we're headed as soon as I post this.

Cheers all,


Attachments:
File comment: Finally Out!
Small-Eng+Trans-Out.jpg
Small-Eng+Trans-Out.jpg [ 114.51 KiB | Viewed 8452 times ]
File comment: It's visually taller and wider than expected due to the deep oil pan, fuel injection manifold and wide 90 degree V. But I expect it will fit just fine in the end.
Rear-of-V6.jpg
Rear-of-V6.jpg [ 120.84 KiB | Viewed 8452 times ]
File comment: The front discs look huge to me and that's not all bad.
Front-Disc.jpg
Front-Disc.jpg [ 91.36 KiB | Viewed 8452 times ]
File comment: I really like this view -- empty!
Empty-Eng-Compartment.jpg
Empty-Eng-Compartment.jpg [ 114.71 KiB | Viewed 8452 times ]

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886
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PostPosted: March 25, 2011, 10:43 pm 
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WELL DONE, Sir!!! Very good... I knew you'd figure it out. Just takes a little noodlin' sometimes.

I like the new signature line, too.

We will, of course, expect a full report on dinner. Seafood? Steaks? Chinese? Enquiring minds, etc, etc.

JDK

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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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PostPosted: March 25, 2011, 11:36 pm 
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Hi Lonnie,
Martin here, from 'down the road'. I found it a real help to make a simple jig between the engine mounting points on the chassis, before I got rid of it. Made aligning the engine supports nice and easy.


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PostPosted: March 26, 2011, 12:01 pm 
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GonzoRacer wrote:
WELL DONE, Sir!!! Very good... I knew you'd figure it out. Just takes a little noodlin' sometimes.

I like the new signature line, too.

We will, of course, expect a full report on dinner. Seafood? Steaks? Chinese? Enquiring minds, etc, etc.

JDK


Thanks, JD.

You like that signature line? I swiped it from your quote to me off the UK TV show. Like I said, steal with both hands [smile].

Momma had lobster, shrimp and scallops with cheddar cheese biscuits, mashed taters, Caesar salad and clam chowder. The girl is not shy. When you take her out for a reward, she knows what to do. It makes me laugh in a good way. We had fun.

Onward and upward!

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 26, 2011, 12:20 pm 
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hassleweed wrote:
Hi Lonnie,
Martin here, from 'down the road'. I found it a real help to make a simple jig between the engine mounting points on the chassis, before I got rid of it. Made aligning the engine supports nice and easy.


Hi Martin,

You know, I actually saw that jig in your build log and I was going to do the same today on my Mustang donor, swear to God. You were just reading my mind.

At first I thought the Mustang motor mounts were too complicated. However, after having to figure out how they worked so I could get the engine out (the engine only lifts out one way), I see that they're actually very clever. I think I may use a new set of the stock mounts in the Locost. They're pretty cheap too at $12-15 for OEM replacements. It's actually held in with two large, flanged 21mm nuts and two locating pins, one on each side.

Coincidentally, I saw a program on the development of the current generation of Mustang on TV (Speed Network?) a while back and at first they had a prototype on a test rig up in Ontario and it was shaking like a bucking bronco. One of the engineers saw right away that it was the motor mount material, I forget why. They swapped in new ones of different material and it was smooth as silk. I think I'll take advantage of what they've figured out over the years and use the stock mounts.

By the way, Martin, I now have my Haynes scuttle and nose from Kinetic. If you don't have yours yet, maybe I can bring mine down when I visit and we'll see how they look on your Locost?

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 28, 2011, 2:53 pm 
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If you don't have yours yet, maybe I can bring mine down when I visit and we'll see how they look on your Locost?



That would be great. I'm waiting on my nosecone, and have a different plan for the scuttle, but would love to see how it looks. What you doing Friday?
Martin


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PostPosted: March 28, 2011, 8:53 pm 
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hassleweed wrote:
That would be great. I'm waiting on my nosecone, and have a different plan for the scuttle, but would love to see how it looks. What you doing Friday?
Martin


Friday would work. If I can get down there around 9:30am and leave by noon I can miss the crazy "weekend escape" traffic on I5. Just e-mail or PM your actual street address. I have your phone number already.

Cheers,

Lonnie

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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 Post subject: Inspriation Day
PostPosted: April 2, 2011, 12:06 pm 
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Dissassembly is proceeding well and I'll have some photos within a few days. The rear axle is out and I hope to have the front suspension completely disassembled this weekend.

Yesterday, was a fun day and pretty inspirational. First, I went down to visit Martin Coghill and see his Haynes/Miata build first hand. I was very impressed by what Martin has accomplished in roughly 10 months. His Locost actually rolls and runs. I guess this means he no longer has to make vroom-vroom sounds since he can just start it up. You can check out his build log here:

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=8967

Second, on my way home, I stopped by the Del Mar Fairgrounds to check out the Good Guys, Del Mar Nationals Car Show (http://www.delmarnats.com/dmn/index.php). I've got to say it exceeded my expectations and it seems to get better every year. It's a great place for any goofy-ass car guy (or gal) like me or you.

You see such inspiring examples of men and women taking on huge challenges and succeeding. How about the young guy who took his mom's hand-me-down, Oldsmobile Aurora with front wheel drive V8 and turned it into a Bonneville streamliner that does almost 300 MPH? He made the whole thing in his garage including the chassis and body.

And, I think I figured out why I can't hear too well anymore. At 1:00 pm they fired off 6 different Top Fuel dragsters from the 60s and 70s one after the other. They were really cool ones too: The Chizzler, Tommy Ivo, Poison Ivy and other similar machines all running 65% Nitro-Methane. The sound was unreal and even with fingers in ears it was really loud. In my wasted youth I spent as many weekends as I could going to the top meets in California and standing as close to the launch as possible – no wonder I is practically deef!

I'm starting to fall in love with the Rat Rod movement. It's mostly youngsters and the creativity they show is really something, but like any new art form it takes some getting use to it. By chance, I struck up a conversation with a youngish Hispanic woman who was maybe 25-30 while viewing a Rat Rod pickup that caught my fancy. As it turns out it was HER car and she built it herself from 4-5 junkers. I was so impressed my her willingness to take on that challenge and the results she achieved. You go girls!

I ended up with 150+ photos in my Nikon digital camera. I is inspired today – gimme dat wrench set and lemme me out in the da garage!

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: April 2, 2011, 12:32 pm 
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And, I think I figured out why I can't hear too well anymore. At 1:00 pm they fired off 6 different Top Fuel dragsters from the 60s and 70s one after the other. They were really cool ones too: The Chizzler, Tommy Ivo, Poison Ivy and other similar machines all running 65% Nitro-Methane. The sound was unreal and even with fingers in ears it was really loud. In my wasted youth I spent as many weekends as I could going to the top meets in California and standing as close to the launch as possible – no wonder I is practically deef!


"He's losing his hearing, but he don't care what most people say." -- Jimmy Buffett

Hmmm, for me it's rock concerts, target shooting, NASCAR, SCCA, drill rigs... Huh? What was that you said, Sonny?

Sounds like a good day. Now git offa the 'puter and go do something!!! :lol:

Peace, Love and "The Who" Live-
JDK

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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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PostPosted: April 2, 2011, 7:16 pm 
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Help. I need some good ideas to keep me from doing something too complicated. I can solve this problem, but tend to do a Rolls-Royce kind of job and I shouldn't spend that much time or money on it right now.

Because of some complicated, interrelated issues (list below), I'm doing a mock-up in wood of my chassis design, so I can verify all major components are placed effectively and what positions/angles are necessary for the driveline. I need a simple, roll-around engine cradle that will allow me to adjust the height of the engine in the cradle and also the angle of inclination front to back, but will hold the engine and transmission very steadily and accurately.

I set up an area for the mock-up today. I'm just using a sheet of MDF with 2x4s underneath it. My plan is to use something like an automotive scissors jack on each corner. That will allow me to adjust the whole platform up and down to simulate ride heights between 5"-6" which is where I think I'll need to be. The top surface of the MDF will represent the point where the undertray will connect. The bottom chassis rails will rest on that surface.

I have 4 strong castors and some steel, but cant think of something ready made that will give me 3-4 inches of adjustability vertically. I'd like to use the stock engine mounts and then some kind of curved rest under the very front of the bell housing, so that the transmission would hang off in space and go right over the top of my MDF at the various ride heights and I can figure out what my rear transmission mount should look like.

Any good ideas or know of a reasonable ready made item that will do the job? I know I could just hang it off my shop crane, but that won't give the kind of control and accuracy I need.


Issue list:
========
1) The donor differential is offset, so I know I'll have to offset the engine/transmission, but don't know how much yet. See the thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12125 if you're interested.

2) The engine is a fairly wide, 90 degree V6. I'm sure it would fit between tha Haynes upper rails if centered, but not if it's offset.

3) The oil pan on the donor V6 is deep and I'm prepared to let it hang 1" beneath the undertray. I'll provide a skid plate with roller just ahead of it to prevent it from bottoming out first.

4) Because the oil pan is deep and reworking it is impractical (it's fabricated from aluminum sheet and an aluminum casting) the engine will be mounted a little high and I'll need a significant angle downward at back, but don't know how much. However, I've found out that it should be a maximum of 5 degrees with 3-4 being better. That's why I want the accurate angles.

5) I'm pretty sure the rear axle drive pinon will need to be slanted upwards, but don't know how far yet. However, I know I need to be at 2 degrees or less yet keep the angle of the driveshaft at 3 degrees of less.

It's a fairly complicated situation, but solvable if I do my homework now.


Attachments:
File comment: I'll us this MDF, but with the top surface at the ride height of the undertray.
Mock-up-Space.jpg
Mock-up-Space.jpg [ 78.1 KiB | Viewed 8211 times ]
File comment: Simple jacking mechanism
Scissors-Jack.jpg
Scissors-Jack.jpg [ 51.44 KiB | Viewed 8211 times ]
File comment: Engine + Tranny
Engine-Tranny.jpg
Engine-Tranny.jpg [ 75.24 KiB | Viewed 8211 times ]

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886
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PostPosted: April 3, 2011, 3:10 am 
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Just to get a better understanding of the problems you're facing, as the idea of a 3.8L Mustang donor has been growing on me for a while now:
1.) How far offset is the differential pinion from being centered?
2.) Just how wide of an engine is it?
3.) Just how tall of an engine is it?
3.5) Any chance you're planning to weigh the drivetrain as it sits for the "engine weights" thread?
4.) How high is the transmission output (same as input/crankshaft?) centerline above the bottom of the oil pan?
5.) What size rear tires are you planning on running?


Disclaimer: Yes, I realize I'm not actually providing mock-up fixturing ideas that you had requested...And no, I do not have first hand experience with the finer points of setting up a live axle.

My general thinking is this...Which angles and offsets you use is kind of going to depend on whether it is considered more important to have the u-joint angles in a single plane or to keep the overall u-joint angles to a minimum. I haven't really seen a definitive answer on the best way to make the 'less than ideal' compromises on these two measures of the driveshaft orientation. I also haven't really seen much noted on where in the suspensions range of motion that these 'rules of thumb' should hold true? I would think that ride height would be a pretty likely candidate, since that should be where the suspension spends the most time even if it is lightly loaded as well...However the u-joints would see far higher loading (wear and tear) under hard acceleration, which generally would cause the suspension to compress, and could subsequently throw all of those carefully calculated angles right out the window anyways.

Either way these joints will be much more lightly loaded, and will likely see far less frequency of use, than they were designed for...So I would expect even if one, or both, of the mentioned joint angularity concerns are not able to be 'ideal' within the compromised confines of a Locost chassis, I wouldn't be surprised if the joints still hold up rather rather well in the long run.

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Last edited by Driven5 on April 3, 2011, 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: April 3, 2011, 10:41 am 
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1) No need to offset the trans, just run the shaft at an angle as long as the longitudal line of the diff and trans are pretty much paralel there won't be an issue

2) As above

3) skid plate is fine, no need for roller.

4) 3 degrees is ok

5) again up to 3 degrees is ok

Great idea with the wood mockup, big time and money saver.

Hey Lonnie, is there anyway you could weight the engine and trans? Preferably separately.

The world in general seems to be short of real world engine weights.


Last edited by cheapracer on April 3, 2011, 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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