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PostPosted: October 27, 2014, 11:43 pm 
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I'd say you must have been grinnin' all the way home from the event.

Like turbo_bird sez
Attachment:
itsabouttime.jpg


Would have loved to been there instead of here waiting for snow.


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PostPosted: October 27, 2014, 11:51 pm 
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JD was there ever any doubt that I'd beat you? After all I had the good sense to get a Stalkerish chassis and we all know that they are infinitely superior to a Locost and show my good taste and skill level. (inside joke) All the DNFs were just me trying to make it look good and get better odds. I DNF'd 50% of the time!! :twisted:

Of course all I got was abuse from the monkey section. Every time I came in they wanted to know if I even knowed what the accelerator pedal looked like. I even got my helmet smacked left & right while they forcibly told me to speed it up. Actually it was just good manners as I was trying to be easy on someone else's car.

Chris, knowing the propensity for the Slotus to cough up a few parts I even brought along a lot of baggies to gather and sort all the little things that fell off so that we could do a CSI on it and try to figure out what went wrong once & for all. Fortunately we didn't need any baggies at all. The biggest drama was the temp reaching 250 once and a little smoke as a teeny, tiny, miniscule oil leak put some oil on the header wrap.

Of course you realize JD that this means I probably would have had another 5-6 seconds in me had I not been worried I would break the beast. I didn't want to send you home to your wife with another tall tale about your heroic efforts and hwo the fickle finger of fate picked on you once again, so I was gentle. I'm hoping this time you came home with a smile, I know I did (and it's gotten even bigger just now).

No disrespect for your car or what you've built, but after some constipatin' on the drive I definitely will go with a 4 cylinder. It's not the V8 wasn't fun, but it's the lazy way to get around the track. I was hardly ever pushing the car to it's max which meant the engine was in the wrong part of it's power band. I was using the torque to make it easy on me instead of working to make it fast on the car.

We drove the car mostly in 3rd gear and the course designers had this wicked little 180 degree hand brake turn built into the autocross course. While the Slotus would move under it's own power in 3rd gear, it was working at nowhere near it's potential. While the 180 degree corner was an extreme example it was true of just about every corner out there. It would pull out of the corners, but it could have pulled harder with some shifting.

Shifting is slow on the big 'Mercan transmission as compared to the Honda S2000 transmission. I would have lost time in some places and had more chances to upset the suspension had I been shifting to keep the engine in it's best powerband, but I still think I could have been a lot faster that way. In the Honda all you have to do is just think your gears up or down and they magically go there. Shifting won't upset the car unless you do something monumentally stupid which makes it easy to be your fastest.

BUT to drive the V8 to the engine's potential would have required a lot more expensive rubber and probably some upgraded brakes. The car was being driven no where near it's potential most of the time, except for a couple of times under braking. This makes it quite a bit more expensive to have a weekend of fun.

The Stalker was faster mostly because it had more rubber under it. I believe they had at least 4" more than you did (if only you had a nickle for every time you've heard that you could afford an engineering team for Slotus). They had the automatic transmission with a torque converter which gave them a little more squirt out of the corners and were running expensive Formula Atlantic Goodyear slicks on all 4 corners. That made up for a lot of driver inequities.

They also had about a 12" shorter wheelbase which didn't hurt in some of the tighter corners. I have no idea how stable it was.

Once again thanx for taking the time with me and it was good to get to know you. You helped out a lot, even by your bad examples.

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PostPosted: October 28, 2014, 10:23 am 
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JD, Tom and I and are using both Hennessey Hats and Whitby parts on Car9. The Whitby spherical bearings are used on the control arm leg that gets the coilover. That prevents bending load on rod ends threads. For the other pickups we use the hats because it lines up the control arms better with the frame with the small offset the single shear mounting gives you.

The whitby parts are designed for this upright and I think Tom is happy with them. They make monoball bushings specifically for american car control arms for front suspensions in the oval track catalogs and I think they are cheaper. It would be nice if they also made them for T'bird uprights so perhaps with the measurements we used ( Driven5 provided those in a thread with that subject ) they would make them for you.

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PostPosted: October 28, 2014, 12:55 pm 
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GonzoRacer wrote:
Yeah, sorry to disappoint y'all, but we didn't break nothin' yesterday. Carguy took six runs, almost back-to-back (because he had to leave early), then HamDip and I did our morning three each and afternoon three and drove it onto the trailer. Excitin' ain't it? No? Well, it wuz to me! (And to Bubba, he'd have been the one pushing!)
JD, thanks for the best lesson learned ever: Just keep trying and you'll eventually get it right! Congrats on a successful outing :cheers:

Quote:
James got some GoPro video of the rear suspension that I just got through watching. It looks like we're getting a good bit of "flex" in the fore-and-aft direction in spite of those "hard" bushings I used. Might be time for some al-you-min-ee-umm ones like SeattleTom is using in his Thunderbird uprights on that Car9 build of his'n. Hmmmm... Wonder if he'd trade for some BBQ sauce....
Its like Horizonjob said, aluminum hats with rod ends adjacent on two of the knuckle pivots and a Whitby spherical bearing kit on the third pivot. Whitby makes these for the FFR Cobra guys and they run the spherical bearings on all three pivots. http://www.whitbymotorsports.com/UInvDe ... oryid=1610

Are you allowed to ship your BBQ sauce across state lines? :)

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My Car9 build: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613
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PostPosted: October 28, 2014, 11:45 pm 
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This is what the hats look like that we had machined. They came out very good looking. The hat with the deeper reach is the one that goes next to the rod end to help it stay stable. The ends don't meet inside so the bolt clamps them tight.


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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 1:06 am 
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horizenjob wrote:
This is what the hats look like that we had machined. They came out very good looking. The hat with the deeper reach is the one that goes next to the rod end to help it stay stable. The ends don't meet inside so the bolt clamps them tight.
And here's what they look like installed with misalignment washers between the rod end and the hat face:
Attachment:
003-1.jpg

Alternatively, there's the Whitby spherical bearing. But that requires a br@ck^t of some sort :ack:


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My Car9 build: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613
"It's the construction of the car-the sheer lunacy and joy of making diverse parts come together and work as one-that counts."

Ultima Spyder, Northstar 4.0, Porsche G50/52


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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 7:13 am 
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horizenjob wrote:
This is what the hats look like that we had machined. They came out very good looking. The hat with the deeper reach is the one that goes next to the rod end to help it stay stable. The ends don't meet inside so the bolt clamps them tight.
Image



how much $$ for the fabrication, If you don't mind me asking.

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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 9:23 pm 
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Alternatively, there's the Whitby spherical bearing. But that requires a br@ck^t of some sort

Hey Tom!
Actually, I had found that link in your build log and checked out Whitby already. And ya know, since I had been using the OEM-type bushings in mine, I already gots br@ck^tz on the control arms. What I don't gots is the four hunnert an twenny-five dollar Amelican money they want for their spherical bearing kits. As we say down here in Th' South: "They is mighty proud of they sh*t!" :shock:

But seriously, folks... I talked with a friend of mine earlier today, a young fellow named Jeremy that races a Miata. He works in a machine shop in town. Jeremy says he can turn me some Hennessey Hats (or reasonable facsimiles) for "next to nothing" in his shop after hours. I'll buy materials, aluminum or delrin, he'll do the machining, badda-bing, badda-boom, we gots bushings. What's not to like??? :mrgreen:

Jeremy is going to come by one afternoon after work and we'll look at stuff and talk about what to do next.
Stay tuned!

:cheers:
JDK

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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 9:30 pm 
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robbovius wrote:
horizenjob wrote:
This is what the hats look like that we had machined. They came out very good looking. The hat with the deeper reach is the one that goes next to the rod end to help it stay stable. The ends don't meet inside so the bolt clamps them tight.


how much $$ for the fabrication, If you don't mind me asking.


Rob, the hats were made for us by a forum member. I recall that he had 8 hours into making the 16 pieces we needed. Material costs were $43 for 24” of 2.25” diameter 6061-T6 rod from Online Metals (more than enough material.)

If any quantity of hats were to be required, their shape really lends its self to a CNC process. Even though there are different diameters and lengths between the top and bottom bushings, that can be handled parametrically.

BTW, during installation I used Loctite 640 Sleeve Retainer, bolted them up and let the goo set up. Now when the suspension arms get put on and removed the hats stay in place.

Here is a jpg of the hand drawn sketch we used for these. The only change was to replace the corner radii with chamfers for ease of manufacture. If anyone wants a larger scale PDF version of the drawing, PM me.


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My Car9 build: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613
"It's the construction of the car-the sheer lunacy and joy of making diverse parts come together and work as one-that counts."

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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 9:36 pm 
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GonzoRacer wrote:
Quote:
Alternatively, there's the Whitby spherical bearing. But that requires a br@ck^t of some sort

Hey Tom!
Actually, I had found that link in your build log and checked out Whitby already. And ya know, since I had been using the OEM-type bushings in mine, I already gots br@ck^tz on the control arms. What I don't gots is the four hunnert an twenny-five dollar Amelican money they want for their spherical bearing kits. As we say down here in Th' South: "They is mighty proud of they sh*t!" :shock:
That they are, JD. But that price is for six spherical bearing assemblies. I only used one on each side, so paid a third of that price. Still dented the budget, but not quite as badly, and I did need the additional support on one bushing holes per side.

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My Car9 build: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613
"It's the construction of the car-the sheer lunacy and joy of making diverse parts come together and work as one-that counts."

Ultima Spyder, Northstar 4.0, Porsche G50/52


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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 9:42 pm 
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Oh, and another thing...
While I was looking at the rear suspension this evening (I didn't actually DO anything, just lookin'...) it occurred to me that I could easily make the UCAs into proper "A Arms" by adding another tube from the outer end back to the frame. It would have to "square up" with the frame, and be attached to the frame with a heim just like the front part. It would go where the black bar is on the picture. (Bottom of the pic is the rear of the car.)
Attachment:
Rear UCA Detail 2.jpg
What do y'all think? Seems to me like Marcus suggested something like this back about 3 years ago or so... I didn't listen... :BH:


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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 9:52 pm 
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GonzoRacer wrote:
Oh, and another thing...
While I was looking at the rear suspension this evening (I didn't actually DO anything, just lookin'...) it occurred to me that I could easily make the UCAs into proper "A Arms" by adding another tube from the outer end back to the frame. It would have to "square up" with the frame, and be attached to the frame with a heim just like the front part. It would go where the black bar is on the picture. What do y'all think? Seems to me like Marcus suggested something like this back about 3 years ago or so... I didn't listen... :BH:
JD, are you using trailing arms or is the LCA the only deterrent to caster change?

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My Car9 build: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613
"It's the construction of the car-the sheer lunacy and joy of making diverse parts come together and work as one-that counts."

Ultima Spyder, Northstar 4.0, Porsche G50/52


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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 10:21 pm 
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seattletom wrote:
JD, are you using trailing arms or is the LCA the only deterrent to caster change?

No trailing arms, just that single tube upper control arm. That's how TBirds wuz built, so that's how I built mine too...

I think if I tried to add trailing arms on the uppers, I might run into clearance problems with the coil overs.

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Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom


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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 11:28 pm 
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That's exactly what I was thinking of JD. I thought your frame had a plate to attach another leg to. The difference between what you have now and what is in the T'bird ( I think ) is that the lower arm has more depth to it. So it's not just some 1"tube, but is more likely 2" or more of height to the material. I think those cars are also known to have issues with their suspension when you push them. I lose track of which years are which though.

If you look at Tom's pictures the way the Hennessey Hats are used they go with a rod end joint. They won't work with a bracket like you have on your arms now because there would be no bearing.

At UB Machine they almost have what you need for a lost less. If you look at their pictures you can see what you need to put mono ball bearings ( spherical bearings ) into your T'bird uprights. It's a metal sleeve with a lip on the inside for the mono ball bearing to seat against an then a snap ring to hold it in. Then you have a pair of smaller metal sleeves that go on the bolt thru your bracket. Here is a picture of the setup, one of about 25 they make for stock car front lower control arms. Also a picture of just a generic sleeve they sell separately.

So perhaps your friend can make these parts for you. You could also call UB Machine and give them dimensions from our drawing and tell them the kit car crowd uses these on Cobras. They might be happy to make them for you cheaper. The Whitby parts have orings that you don't need on a track car and they probably charge more because they have to have them made for them.

http://ubmachine.com/monoballhousings.html


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Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


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PostPosted: October 30, 2014, 12:05 am 
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JD, just to add to Marcus' comments: His lower picture is conceptually the same as the Whitby assemblies. The UB parts look like a potentially good alternative. BTW, like UB, Whitby is also a machine shop so likely make their own parts.

About the O-rings, they're cheap and help keep grease in the bearing area and crud out. They also keep the finger sleeves aligned and not falling out during assembly, which is very helpful. I would recommend them if you go this route.

Jeremy sounds like a good resource to have around. Some of the stock UB parts might work with a little modifying, like different finger sleeves or something. I'm sure you can put something together that is better than the original T-Bird stuff.

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My Car9 build: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613
"It's the construction of the car-the sheer lunacy and joy of making diverse parts come together and work as one-that counts."

Ultima Spyder, Northstar 4.0, Porsche G50/52


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