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PostPosted: September 15, 2012, 10:37 am 
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PostPosted: September 15, 2012, 11:45 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
This sounds like a great project. Sounds like you bought a copy of MAX's bodywork? And you're planning on a rear-engine layout?

Depending on how much you're interested in fuel efficiency, I'd suggest trying to make it as narrow as possible. An area Jack hasn't explored with MAX which I think could help a lot, reducing frontal surface area. I'm really curious how narrow a car you could make from a Geo donor, shortening the half shafts. How short can you make them without causing suspension travel problems?

You know about the VW L1? I'd like to make something kind of like that. I really like the tandem seating.
Image

Oh, I also feel a need to mention Continental's tires for electric cars. Supposed to be very efficient.

Can't believe I hadn't heard about Jack's Geo plans until now.

I guess I'd still really like to find a pre-OBD option to avoid all the electronics you mentioned.


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PostPosted: September 16, 2012, 2:40 pm 
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I have a Subaru Justy engine that has a carb...the last model that did, I think. Belive it is a '93, and was told by the previous owener that it was taken from a wreck that had 35,000 miles on it. I think it is a 1.3 liter and produced 66 hp.


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PostPosted: September 16, 2012, 11:28 pm 
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IIRC, a friend who had one of those Justys said that they were the last passenger car sold in the US to come with a carburetor. I think they are also a 9 valve head, again if I recall correctly! :D

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PostPosted: December 19, 2012, 8:36 pm 
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Location: Arkansas
Finished the welding class I was taking. My original plan was to tack my frame together and have it professionally welded. But, having acquired an industrial TIG welder and having seen what I am capable of after completing the class I have decided...to tack my frame together and have it professionally welded.

Met a local race car builder the other day and had a good long talk about how I planned to build my car. He highly recommended that I NOT use chromemoly and DOM due to the difficulty of working with these metals and their suceptibility to breaking instead of bending in an accident. Everything he said made sense to me, sooo...I have about seventy feet of 2 inch square .063 chromemoly for sale.

I have been following the Midlana project and really like how it is turning out. Since I have never been a "car person", and haven't any good ideas on how to proceed, I think I would be wise to wait for the book and use that for my basic car. Probably "overkill" for a Geo based car, but it would allow for "upgrades" if someone else got the car.


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PostPosted: December 19, 2012, 9:26 pm 
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BobM wrote:
...Met a local race car builder the other day and had a good long talk about how I planned to build my car. He highly recommended that I NOT use chromemoly and DOM due to the difficulty of working with these metals and their suceptibility to breaking instead of bending in an accident. Everything he said made sense to me, sooo...I have about seventy feet of 2 inch square .063 chromemoly for sale...

"DOM" means "Drawn Over Mandrel" - it's just ordinary ERW mild steel that's had its weld seam squashed down. NASA and SCCA both specify DOM tubing be used in the construction of roll cages, so any bad things you hear about it is either hearsay or misinformation.

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PostPosted: December 20, 2012, 2:05 pm 
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BobM wrote:
Finished the welding class I was taking. My original plan was to tack my frame together and have it professionally welded. But, having acquired an industrial TIG welder and having seen what I am capable of after completing the class I have decided...to tack my frame together and have it professionally welded.


Wise plan. Each of us must serve our specific level of risk aversion.

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Met a local race car builder the other day and had a good long talk about how I planned to build my car. He highly recommended that I NOT use chromemoly and DOM due to the difficulty of working with these metals and their suceptibility to breaking instead of bending in an accident. Everything he said made sense to me, sooo...I have about seventy feet of 2 inch square .063 chromemoly for sale.


By "Chromemoly" you mean 4130 alloy steel, which is carbon steel (iron and some percent of carbon) alloyed with chroimium and molybdenum. Your "local race car builder"s comments are surprising, given that 4130 alloy steel is perfect for structural applications, and is very workable. you're fine for using that as chassis material. 4130 is a higher strength alloy that still has good ductility. 4130 is highly weldable and has good workability by all the usual methods, and it's specified for motorcycle frames, tube and rag aircraft fuselages, etc. Its pretty muchperfect for your application, though, in my opinion, 2 in .065 wall 4130 is a bit of overkill for something so light as what you'll be building. Most of the "book" locosts (both ron champion and haynes books) use 1 inch square 1030 mild steel, and that's plenty strong. thats exactly the material I've used in my build.

here's a link to some info on steel alloys you might find helpful:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/metalinfo.php

Sympatico with KB58's coments regarding DOM tube. The main advantage of DOM is that its' more dimensionally accurate than simple ERW (electrical resistance welded) tube.

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PostPosted: December 20, 2012, 3:15 pm 
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I think the local fabricator's problem with DOM was that the seam is "skewed" and it's hard to tell where the seam is, plus the drawing over the mandrel work hardened the metal a bit and made it more subceptible to breaking. As for the 4130 he said he would not use it in the structure near the driver due to it breaking in an accident. He was adamant about having structures bend rather than break. He also felt that it would difficult to get a good weld between mild steel and 4130.

I have two inch tubing because that is what the fabricator in PA (where I bought it) had on hand. Jack is using 2" for the rear frame on his Geo project. I seem to remember that Kurt used 1 1/2" DOM for the cage on the Midlana and from the pictures it appears that is also the size of the square tubing he used for the frame also.


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PostPosted: December 20, 2012, 5:04 pm 
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robbovius wrote:
. . . <snip>
By "Chromemoly" you mean 4130 alloy steel, which is carbon steel (iron and some percent of carbon) alloyed with chroimium and molybdenum. Your "local race car builder"s comments are surprising, given that 4130 alloy steel is perfect for structural applications, and is very workable.
. . . <snip>


Even after all the years 4130 has been worked with, there appear to be two schools of thought with respect to fabricating with it. The first is that all welded 4130 structures need to be stress relieved during and/or after construction. The second believes it is unnecessary to do so except in rare, specific cases. There seem to be bright, experienced people on both sides of the argument. It's way out of my metallurgical and welding expertise level and I offer no opinion. However, I think that is why some fabricators, those from the "must be stress relieved camp" tell amateurs not to use 4130. Perhaps that's what the builder mentioned was thinking?

Like was said before, mild steel works just fine for a Locost chassis, so no worries there.

Cheers,

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PostPosted: December 20, 2012, 5:09 pm 
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BobM wrote:
He also felt that it would difficult to get a good weld between mild steel and 4130.


I can only speak from my experience with much lighter weight tubular structures (bicycles) but we weld 4130 to "lesser" alloys all the time. Often relativley thick "hi-ten" parts (say, 8-10mm) to thin wall 4130 tubes (1.5mm). Also failure mode with 4130 is usually pretty benign...yields/bends but certainly does not split apart. And nobody does any kind of post-weld treatment to 4130 in this industry. Just FWIW. :)

I have a fair amount of experience TIG welding both 4130 and other grades of steel. Since you already have the 4130, I would use it. That being said, I'm not planning on going out of my way to use 4130 in my build. I don't think the incrementally better material properties will be worth it.

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PostPosted: December 20, 2012, 7:38 pm 
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sorry, i can't get past the young lady bit, and she is an expert welder.

i think i must have some sort of memory loss as i can't for the life of me remember how to or even what is a weld!

does she do house calls, i'm sure i could pick it up in say a year with the right encouragement.

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PostPosted: December 20, 2012, 9:23 pm 
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Location: Arkansas
John, the last I heard about her she had a boyfriend who is a union welder. He was helping her train for union membership so she can get a job welding gas lines. My instructor here has two sons (both with college degrees) who have been working welding gas pipe lines in the Washington, PA area. He said they were making $5,000. a week. Seems hard to believe, but I know there is a shortage of welders in this country. We encourage our youth to get college degrees, when we sorely need tradespeople.


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PostPosted: December 20, 2012, 10:31 pm 
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BobM wrote:
We encourage our youth to get college degrees, when we sorely need tradespeople.


Correct. I have a fancy BA (diploma in Latin!), a grad degree, and I make my 6-figure income with stuff that I learned on my own and at community college.

I looked at a welding class at my local community college. They wanted me to apply for the college degree, complete with high school transcripts. And before I can take the welding class, I have to prove that I passed a college-level English class somewhere along the line. Guess I should've taken an English class before I started writing for publication or something....

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Hayes front, S10 +2 rear, Lalo body.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2012, 11:14 pm 
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Geek, the welding classes I took, in PA and here in AR, were adult ed. programs and pretty informal. Got my BS when I was 40 years old (after I had retired from USAF) and my MBA at 53. Never used either. Hired on at Martin Marrieta/Lockheed Martin based on my military experienced. They called me an engineer instead of a technician so they wouldn't have to pay me as much. I was allowed all the unpaid overtime (and it was expected) I wanted to work.

I am originally from Durham. Was in the first graduating class of Northern High School in 1956.


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PostPosted: December 20, 2012, 11:44 pm 
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I'm the newest damned yankee here, and about 2 miles safely inside of the Wake County line. You might recall Morrisville, Apex, etc as sleep little places, but now they are (sadly) sprawling overblown trendy condo lands, full of relocated yankees.

I got to work for one defense contractor, in their IT division. I'll never do it again -- I don't like working in a corporate culture where everyone lies to each other, then spies to find out what is really going on. And that's just planning a lunch meeting!

The local Wake Co adult ed classes do include welding -- mostly stick welding, with nothing for TIG or MIG. I might do a brazing/torch welding class, but why would I take a stick welding class?

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Hayes front, S10 +2 rear, Lalo body.
Girlfriend thinks I'm nuts for building this....


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