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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: December 10, 2015, 1:36 pm 
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Location: Pemberton, BC
Well, now that I have purchased a donor, I guess it is time to start a new build log.
As the title suggests, I am planning on building a Morgan 3 Wheeler replica. However, I really can't justify an expensive build, having just finished my 7 (the Reven 7), so it will be a Locost interpretation. The engine will be from a '98 Honda VTR 1000, also known as the Fire Hawk or Firestorm, Honda's 90* V twin, that was an answer to the popularity of the Ducatis. It has about 110hp and 72 lb-ft torque, and, although liquid cooled, it will still look somewhat like the Morgan's S&S engine. The cost of one of those engines is more than what I spent on the 7. For the rear end, I am planning on a complete swing arm and drive from a Honda Goldwing GL 1500, thanks to some good advice from Miatav8. The front suspension will be a copy of what I already have on the 7, however, with traditional outboard coil overs. And I just happen to have an extra set of AVOs. It is nice to have a working model to work from, a luxury I obviously didn't have the first time around.
One of my goals for my next build was to develop, and apply, some sheet metal forming skills, which hopefully will result in a hand formed aluminum body. I also want to learn more about upholstery, so I'm planning on a finished interior. This will be a fairly slow build, since I plan on sorting out the 7, and enjoying it as much as I can, during the summer months. But I am really looking forward to it, maybe more so now, since I have no self imposed pressure to get it done. I can play with the 7 in the meantime.
So the first order of business is the parting out of the VTR, selling the parts, and setting the engine on the build table. Once I have a rear end, I can configure a drive line and then build the frame from the inside out.


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File comment: the donor
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File comment: the engine
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2DSzIgl4nC5m129916684468P363.jpg [ 64.44 KiB | Viewed 4592 times ]
File comment: the inspiration
morgan-3wheeler.jpg
morgan-3wheeler.jpg [ 136.57 KiB | Viewed 4592 times ]

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PostPosted: December 10, 2015, 2:46 pm 
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LOVE IT! You're certainly going to come out of this with a few new skills- as you stated, forming that body, and of course upholstery.. Many times I've wanted a curved/dished panel, but I've not yet learned how to do it..

I love these little machines.. so impractical, yet so very cool 8)

So I'll be the first to ask.. you're planning to run the VTR's tranny? What about the dreaded lack of reverse issue? Bump stick? :drive: Paddle shift? I've seen where the 'new' Morgans fab in a car tranny (I think it's VW or Miata??).. maybe not an option with you offset drive flange (as opposed to a Moto Guzzi; -btw, the engine choice ship has sailed, but any thoughts of using a Moto Guzzi as you did your research?)..

For now looks like you're a bike breaker.. hopefully you'll find one guy that wants all of your extra bits and he alone can cover your cost (we can dream, right?!)

fun fun fun :cheers:


--ccrunner

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PostPosted: December 10, 2015, 3:23 pm 
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With the third wheel in the center, I'd just use friction drive - a motorized roller against the rear tire. Pull up on a "parking brake" lever which would simultaneously switch power to the motor while hinging it against the tire tread. Something like a motorcycle starter would be plenty of motor.


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PostPosted: December 10, 2015, 3:43 pm 
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Assuming you're using a driveshaft, you could always sandwhich a small flywheel between the driveshaft and the rear end, and use a starter as previously mentioned to spin it. it would be slow depending on the reduction, but would work.

alternatively, if you find a Goldwing donor instead of just a rear end you could always cannibalize the reverse assembly off of that.

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PostPosted: December 10, 2015, 4:21 pm 
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:lurking:

I'll be watching this one progress. A three wheeler is always tumbling around inside my head

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PostPosted: December 10, 2015, 6:28 pm 
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Same here. Just like you, I've finished my Locost 7 (Tom's Toyota 3TC build) and I"ve always admired the Morgan 3-wheeler. I found a Honda CX500 with rear drive wheel and shaft, and now looking for time and space. Are you planning to use a modified (same front, different rear) standard frame? Looking forward to your build log. :lol:


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PostPosted: December 10, 2015, 7:39 pm 
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Thanks, guys.
ccrunner,
I would have gone for the Moto Guzzi, just because it would be a more period correct look. And there is one for sale right now in Greater Vancouver, but I just can't justify the price. The new Morgan uses a Miata transmission, then a driveshaft to a Quaife bevel box, and then a belt drive to the rear wheel. Very high tech, but also pricey. I will stick to what I already know. Once I have the parts on the table, I will have a better idea, but I may look into a CR-V drive shaft, with the appropriate u-joints at each end. As for reverse, I'm so happy with mine, I may just do it again. And I will post my video soon. However, as I have mentioned before, the 7 is so easy to push, I only use the reverse when I'm already strapped in. I would expect the same for the Morgan.
TRX and 1055,
both systems should work, but as always, packaging is an issue. The gear on the diff would have interfered with the tunnel, but it could have been made to work.
Tom,
I watched your build x 2. Great work. :cheers:
Good choice on the engine. I was thinking along the same way, even looking for a CX 650 turbo, but they are rare and expensive. The ST1100 would be nice too, but again, not cheap. I know that there will be some very pricey bits, so I have to tread carefully. The 19" wheels are $ 500 each, and in my mind, an absolute must have. Also, I'm thinking of a rear steer configuration, just for packaging, but the Wilwood Pro spindles are double the price of the regular ones. As to the frame, I'm not decided yet. I like the new Morgan frame, since it can be built very strong and safe, but it would necessitate a completely separate body to accommodate the slight curvature, which again, I think is necessary. The other option is to build a tub, similar to the JZR (check Fred's build log; he sometimes visits here http://jzrusa2.blogspot.ca/), and build the curvature into the tub wall. As always, options and problem solving. The tunnel will dictate a lot, since the off-set is significant. And that will be a function of the swingarm/final drive.


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Morgan3Wheeler_17-550x297.jpg
Morgan3Wheeler_17-550x297.jpg [ 27.58 KiB | Viewed 4519 times ]

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My build log:
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My build video:
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PostPosted: December 11, 2015, 10:27 am 
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Location: Carlsbad, California, USA
You're sure an energetic guy, Martin. A three-wheeler will be something new (and simpler?). How about combining your aviation and automotive interests with a 3-wheeler like this?
Attachment:
File comment: Your new project?
3-Wheeler-with-prop.jpg
3-Wheeler-with-prop.jpg [ 53.86 KiB | Viewed 4445 times ]


It uses a motorcycle engine, has 2 seats and definitely unique. It should easily clear those annoying pedestrians out of your way too :-D

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: December 11, 2015, 3:21 pm 
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Your new project?
You found me out, Lonnie. :rofl:

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PostPosted: December 14, 2015, 1:16 pm 
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Joined: August 12, 2012, 6:38 pm
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
First off, awesome to see another morgan-style reverse trike in the works.

Martin, forget reverse or any kind of mechanical reverser. I push the B-3 around all the time. it only weighs 910 lbs, so its easy to push, cake in fact, and I like cake. This past weekend I ran it out of gas (oooops) and had to push it about 1/4 mile to the nearest gas station, and it was easy. at one point I was just walking along beside it lightly pushing on the steering wheel and steering at the same time. I often tell people that the reason I put the roll bar on it was so it'd be easy to push, and it is. design in some push handles/pads, and you'll be fine.

also, adding a reverser is extra weight, so... the B-3 will never have one. pushing is part of the experience. its not a car.

the modern Morgan three wheeler has a miata transmission attached to an S&S X-wedge V-twin via a rather complicated driveline isolator mechanism. you won't have that. from my own experience on the B-3, I'm going to add a guibo style driveline isolator on the next one. the B-3 clanks a bit on shifts, and you can sometimes - very seldom actually, it has good flywheel effect - get a bit of driveline jerking on and off throttle, but its not bad enough to make me want to change anything.

your driveshaft will be offset to the passenger side, and you're going to need a multiple piece driveshaft to get from the engine to the swingarm. the driveshaft in the B-3 is two piece, (not counting the section that's actually inside the motorcycle swingarm, B-3 has a Suzuki VS1400 swingarm) you'll need at least that, and because of the driveshaft offset, the driveshaft will have to pass partially underneath the passenger seat, which will limit how low you can mount the seat. you're going to need to support the rear section of the driveshaft (which goes under the seat) in a pair of bearings so that it can support the driveshaft section within the swingarm, since that would otherwise be supported by the output shaft on the GL engine. I used 1.0 ID race kart axle bearings, and they're holding up fine.

in the B-3 the driveshaft is within 1.125 inch of the bottom of the drivers seat with a 6061 aluminum cover in between.

when I do the next one (the Martian Buzz Bomb, powered by a Suzuki GSX1100G four banger - the shaft drive version of the air-and-oil-cooled GSXR 1100) I'm going to use 1.25 ID race kart axle bearings because for those you can get bearing mounts that are self aligning.

I have had the thought that it might not be absolutely necessary to have the under-seat driveshaft section present its end to the swingarm driveshaft section directly horizontally, but could be angled a bit which would have allowed me to mount the seats lower - if you can visualize what I'm talking about.

both the front and rear sections of the B-3 driveshaft are made from 1.0 inch OD .188 wall DOM with motorcycle spline ends (a combination of Suzuki VS800/1400 series and Yamaha XS750/850/1100 spline ends cut from the stock motorcycle driveshafts (Ebay), machined for a tight slip fit into the DOM and welded. 8600 miles, including a dozen-or-more fat smoky burnouts and everything is fine.

you're going to need to support the rear section of the driveshaft in a pair of bearings so that it can support the driveshaft section within the swingarm, since that would otherwise be supported by the output shaft on the GL engine.

Having built the B-3 and happily winding up with a pretty much successful and solid daily driver, I've learned a bunch of other lessons, feel free to ask anything, I also have a huge archive of pictures and video - waaayyy more than I showed in my build thread. I'll be happy to describe any of my design solutions should you be curious.

you should now be on ebay collecting GL1100 universal joints and driveshafts ;-)

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PostPosted: December 14, 2015, 1:43 pm 
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TRX wrote:
Something like a motorcycle starter would be plenty of motor.


I think you greatly overestimate the strength of the average motorcycle starter ;-) they are dinky little things. Ask FredV44 about how well the bike starter reverser works in his JZR...

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PostPosted: December 14, 2015, 2:28 pm 
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That really depends on the starter used as they vary in size and output greatly. I would not trust the VTR starter to reverse a three wheeler that heavy. A gold wing starter I would trust a bit more as it moves a heavy bike with a good bit of gear reduction in place. A car or truck starter would be ideal for the power but very heavy in comparison.


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PostPosted: December 14, 2015, 2:40 pm 
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Thanks so much, Rob.
I was definitely hoping to draw on some of your experiences. Especially the driveshaft configuration. I studied your build log and FredV's, and will probably go the same route.
I agree on the reverse. The 7 is already easy to push, and the Morgan should be easier; less contact patch for one, lower weight the other. The only reason I like the reverse in the 7, is the time it takes to get in and out. Once I'm all strapped in, and have the need to back up, then I will use the reverse. Since I'm planning on the more traditional Morgan cockpit, and conventional 3 point belts, it should be easier to hop out and push. As to the power of the electric motor, mine is a 3.5 hp HiTorque SBC starter motor, and it is needed to move the car. I was going to match the gear (from a 1976 Skidoo) to a snowmobile starter, but I don't think that it would have worked. For some fluky reason, the SBC has the same bendix as a Skidoo snowmobile. :D
For now I'm busy parting out the VTR and listing the parts on Ebay. Maybe too close to Christmas for selling used bike parts, but I'm in no real hurry. Once I get the engine on the build table and find a rear end, I can start laying out the drive line. That will be the anchor point for the rest.

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My build log:
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My build video:
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PostPosted: December 15, 2015, 4:00 pm 
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Glad to help Martin.

just FYI, my cockpit is 39 inches wide (inside the frame rails - I took my inner width dimension from the Cessna 150/152 ;-) ) at the seats, 30 at the firewall, and 54 inches long. the next one will definitely add length (+2 inches minimum), and probably a bit more width at the firewall (32"wide I figure) for a bigger drivers footbox.

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PostPosted: December 20, 2015, 1:27 pm 
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Location: Bend Oregon
Welcome to the world of 3 wheels Martin! Looking forward to following your build.


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