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 Post subject: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: August 24, 2017, 11:55 am 
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Joined: August 12, 2012, 6:38 pm
Posts: 1897
Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
Well, gotta start somewhere.

Pam's a Car Girl. She was all about me building the B-3, and stood solidly behind that proj, sending me out to the old Milford G'raj every Sunday for a couple hours until that thing was BUILT. She now rides in the passenger seat as often as she can, smiling hugely, just like me.

It's always been a given between us that I'd do this again, y'know, build up a car from scratch, and so, we'd been 'round to the various vintage races and Larz Anderson Museum events and cruise nights - not to mention showing her pictures online, and it's come to pass that the Next Proj isn't going to be the Bloody Hell Straight 8, or The Martian Buzz Bomb, or the Water buffalo Resurrection, but rather...

The Pamilcar.

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You are correct, it does look a whole lot like the B-3 - but for having 4 wheels - and much of the chassis design is carried over.

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the B-3 handles pretty well, and is a screaming blast to drive, and I do want to replicate that. But, there are a couple things I have changed on the Pamilcar, that are lessons learned.

1. it's 4 inches wider, so that the seats can be lower, and the footbox isn't so narrow.
2. the passenger area is 5 inches longer to increase legroom and give a bit more room behind the seats for storage.

IN this side view you can see how much lower and longer is, though it keeps the same 96 inch wheelbase as the B-3. Ground clearance to the bottom of the chassis is six inches, as this is a street vehicle, and, well, yeah. Less than that is trouble, by and large, I have observed. It keeps the boat-tail motif, 'cuz that's kewl.

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this top view illustrates the difference is passenger area width and length nicely, I think. you can also see that there's a bit more tire. 185/60-14s on the front, and 205/60-14 on the rear (B-3 is 165/60-14 front and a single 165/80-15 rear)

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Power-wise, it'll have some four-banger or other, anything 115-130 hp will be entirely sufficient, as the weight goal is 1250 lbs, or, about 330 lbs heavier than the B-3 - which seems a reasonable estimate of how much weight will be added turning the B-3 design into a 4-wheel car, with all the other stuff required to make it road legal.

So, Pam and I have been talking about it, and obviously I've been working out the design a bit, and I do actually have some hard parts to mess with.

way back before I got the great Idea to use MGB wire wheels on the B-3, I'd scrounged a set of Miata spindles and lower ball joints. yesterday afternoon I set about cleaning them up a bit so that I can measure them and make a couple CAD models.

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...and how did get that dust shield off without removing the hub, I hear you all asking? Easy-peasy lemon-sqeezy, I'll have you know. undo two of the three bolts, snip thru the thinnest bit near the spindle shank, and...

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...BASH IT WITH A HAMMER.

Updates, as they occur.

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Last edited by robbovius on August 24, 2017, 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: August 24, 2017, 12:53 pm 
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Location: Summerville, SC
:yay:

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: August 24, 2017, 2:29 pm 
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Posts: 483
Location: Waterloo, WI
Awesome! Another Robbovius build! I'm certain that this one, like the B-3, will work....MINT! :lol:

P.S. My mind sees "Robo-virus" whenever I see your username. Like the Terminator with a cold.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: August 25, 2017, 12:00 pm 
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Posts: 1117
Location: Bakersfield, CA
2 things come to mind..

1. Very cool that you're posting up another build log... so fun to follow along and learn..

2. Pam is a rare bird... my sweetie wouldn't even ride in my last build.. You're a lucky man :wink:


-ccrunner

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: August 25, 2017, 1:08 pm 
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Joined: August 12, 2012, 6:38 pm
Posts: 1897
Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
Thanks guys, feels good to have the Build Juices flowing again.

there were many lessons learned on the B-3, one of the most important is don't try to put a time limit on it too soon. Remember how I was writing "Three More Months" when I had 2 years left to go? lolz,
Oh how we laughed.

It's kinda fun getting the build log going just about at the very beginning, unlike the B-3 where I was already 2 years in when I started posting.

CC, she's the very best, I am very lucky she found me. I tell her all the time. She routinely replies, "I know". ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: August 31, 2017, 4:26 pm 
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Posts: 1897
Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
Design phase, Episode II

I think a lot about this new build, especially after my Track Night in America laps at Thompson Speedway last 8/29. That's the perfect track thing for me, low key, well managed, CHEAP (on track for $150, c'mon, they're giving it away, right?), But no three wheelers allowed in the run groups, damn their black hearts.

So I need me a four wheel car, and the proj proceeds apace, as it were.

Here's a few views of the chassis design as it is now.

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as you can see, it's pretty heavily triangulated. Construction methodology and materials is straight up locost (just like the B-3). compared with the pics upthread, you'll see that I've widened the engine cradle, because workspace around the engine is a good thing, and engine fitment will be a bit easier with a few extra inches around. it's still narrower than the engine cradle in the B-3 (though longer), and I'm planning on incorporating a bolted link under the engine/tranny join to reconnect that span which will get cut out (just like on the usual locost) to fit the transmission.

that extra engine space is one of the many lessons learned on the B-3. Another is not tapering the passenger area into the firewall until the dashboard datum.

on the B-3 the taper to the cowl begins at the front of the seats, and thus the dash (and thus the windscreen and wind protection) leaves the occupants shoulders out in the breeze/dirt/rain.

The B-3 CG isn't especially low. the offset driveshaft forced the seats upward, and the fuel tank is up high behind the driver and passenger where it sort of had to go, given the structure required to attach the Intruder 1400 rear frame section that holds the B-3 rear suspension. The tank just about even with the shoulder blades. I can feel that heaviness up high when the tank is full.

The Pamilcar is having none of that nonsense. I am putting the fuel tank low and out behind the rear axle where it belongs.

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in the view above, there can be seen a CAD-model RCI 12-gallon drag racing fuel cel, which seems to fit pretty nicely. It necessitated lengthening and widening the boat tail by 2 inches in each direction.

compare the pic below with the same comparative view up thread...

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Top view shows the tank test fit in the boat tail.

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But.. I already know that's not where it's going to wind up. I need the differential in there, and the supporting structure for the differential etc, and the space required for the rear control arms...yeah. so the tank will need to go farther back, and that particular tank already sticks way out there...so yeah.

So, it'll be kinda like that, but...not? At any rate, I've found a few online sources for automotive fuel cells, and some of them are very reasonably priced. I really don't want to have to make my own tank, if I can at all avoid it, though I know the boat tail would benefit by it.

Speaking of the rear suspension, its going to be independent, with most likely a Subie rear end in there.

but that's for another day.

Next Up, CAD models of the Miata spindles.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: October 2, 2017, 10:32 am 
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
As mentioned, CAD Miata Spindles. The B-3 insisted on some repairs lately, so this effort took a bit longer than expected, but here it is...

This is the part of the B-3 build that you all missed, the very early design and figuring shite out, during the first several months. That build didn't get posted here until I was already two years in, but here, you're getting all the gory - and boring - details.

Seen here in all its glory, as CAD model of an early 90s MX5 spindle that is as close to +/- .020 in every critical dimension as I can get (just like the MGB kingpin/swivel assemblies in the B-3 renderings), with my not-inconsiderable measuring skillz.

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Lookit all them there datum planes there. That's what it takes to build this kind of model.
The measuring was challenging, but I was helped by the fact that - with the hub in place - the hub face is perpendicular to a horizontal plane defined by the three points of the Hub circumference, lower ball joint mounting boss, and tie rod end mounting boss on the end of the steering arm.

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Reference tracings are also very helpful...

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Getting all those measurements, checking and rechecking took about a week and a half of evenings, but the result is, Ta DAHHHH. A cad model with lower control arms and ball joints.

...and tires

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as you can see, the lower control arms borrow heavily from the B-3 design, but the parts count is up to 10 individual pieces going into the jig, so I'm considering some simplifications.

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top view...the LCA pivot axis is at an angle parallel to the lower frame tube, attachment are brackets made of 1 x 2 x .125 wall tubing. UCA brackets will attach to the two vertical tubes. Mr McCornack, I'm am heavily considering your UCA kits, because I can't honestly think of a better design, and it would certainly cut out a 2-3 months of design and fabrication time from the build.

In other design elements, the fuel rank changed, and I've added pushed the 96 inch wheelbase forward another inch or so on the chassis.

Lastly, for fun, some latest CAD views of the design so far...

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Now, get back to work.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: October 3, 2017, 2:24 pm 
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
Well, rather quicker updates than the last...

Firstly, I redesigned the forward-most chassis bracing, in such a way that it will give me good clearance for the steering rack input (was a problem on the B-3, had to cut away a tube and add the right side V brace you can see in some pics upthread), and better meet my sense of aesthetics, such as they are.

check out all its majesty...

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those, and the forward corner braces should nicely resolve the axial torsion at the front, coming from the shock mounts (which will be a McCornack cross-bar)

But, best of all, I have an LCA design that I would be very happy building.

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Again, the architecture is absolutely a development of the B-3 design (which has proven to be solid and sturdy). Materials will be exactly the same as the B-3 items, including parts count ;-) they are set up for the Locost-common early '90s MX-5 ball joints.

I found the order sheet for the steel I bought to build the B-3 V2 arms, so will likely just repeat that order. these LCAs aren't a whole lot larger than the B-3 pieces, and I do have some of that steel left, so...sparks may be flying soon. Maybe. there's still a crap ton of design to do. But it'd be nice to have some pieces made, make the project seem like more than just an idea...y'know?

So, seems I need me a Jig, doesn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: October 4, 2017, 1:27 pm 
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
...so then, a drawing was created...

Attachment:
B-4LCA.JPG
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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: October 5, 2017, 7:13 am 
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Ooooh, another Robb project...


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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: November 15, 2017, 9:42 am 
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
The Pamilcar Proj proceeds, but since I am now a homeowner (again), the things that my lanlawd used to take care of are now up to me, which takes time, not to mention money -though I did just mention that, didn't I? Still, some of those home projects are fun, and actuallyessential to the Proj, like ferinstance...

A shed.

The home G'raj is pretty much jammed with everything that was previously apportioned between the old Milford G'raj, Cellar, and Attic, and there is not anything like a space to build anything bigger than a control arm, so it was fairly obvious early on that I'd need some kind of external storage. I've got even more shiat now, what with the mower and snow blower and yard equipment etc...

Anyway, I was determined to get it done quickly and CBMMA-compliant, so one afternoon I took a trip to the local Tractor Supply, and a Shed Logic 10 x 10 x 8 heavy doody fabric shed came home with me. Then with help from son Cody, I built a platform for it to sit on.

"..from tiny seeds the mighty Oak doth grow..."

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Shed surfing, its a thing.

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Later that same day...thing of fricken beauty, is what that is.

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.

Day Two. Open the Box!

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The frame is screwed into the platform floor at each pipe end. It took all of my not inconsiderable will to NOT weld the frame together. I reeeeaaalllly wanted to, and someday...

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Pam helped attach the front and rear skins, but I got the top/side skin on there all by my own damn self.

Uno...

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Para Mira de Voy! Dos...like bloody magic.

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Then a week later I sealed the bottom edges to the platform and added a bottom curtain to the "door", and that thing is as weather proof as the G'raj, no lie.

door corner plates...

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sealing panel on rear wall...

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...and the "door" extension. Its screwed to a length of PVC pipe that's in the sleeve on the bottom edge of the door, as though that's what you were supposed to do.

Attachment:
door curtain.JPG
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With all that done, I have been slowly moving things out to the shed and freeing up space in the G'raj. This isn't to say that the Pamilcar hasn't had some work done, as it has.

the B-3 was always intended to have an open engine - its a motorcycle after all - but the Pamilcar will need a hood and a grille, so here they are. Nope, no boneyard Merc grille for this thing...

Driver's side...

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Passenger side...

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It looks bit chunky, but I'm digging it. Most definitely has its own look.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: November 15, 2017, 9:52 am 
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Posts: 1897
Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
... and just because I can, a couple more views of the Pamilcar with the hood and grille...

Front...

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Right Side...

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Top.

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Design work on the chassis/suspension has slowed, as I've gotten to the point where I need some donor parts to measure and model, and haven't any of that. Pam and I have discussed that very issue, and have been floating the idea of obtaining a donor vehicle for cheap money, like under $1k. of course, I'd have to store it in the driveway until it was disassembled and the useless stuff discarded...but, we shall see.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: November 15, 2017, 1:26 pm 
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Location: Cornholio OR "Where the magic happens"
In my opinion a single donor deal is not favorable.

You make compromises that affect the finished product using parts that are sub optimal for the application.

If you are space challenged or time challenged, or up against homeowners association rules it makes it difficult to deal with a donor.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: November 15, 2017, 3:34 pm 
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
Bent Wrench wrote:
In my opinion a single donor deal is not favorable.

You make compromises that affect the finished product using parts that are sub optimal for the application.

If you are space challenged or time challenged, or up against homeowners association rules it makes it difficult to deal with a donor.


I don't have any kind of HA issue, and my neightbors would be kewl with a car covered in the driveway (neighbour on the corner has had a couple unregistered cars there off and on, routinely works on vehicles in his driveway).

The B-3 had a single donor (my 1980 Yamaha XS850) that provided the engine, electrical harness, and various sections of frame tubing, and then other stuff sourced either from the boneyard or Ebay. these cars are full of compromises, really. If I was able to find a cheap donor for the engine, transmission and final drive for cheap, that'd get me ahead of having to seek out those items separately. Depends though. Right now the plan is to source those things individually from the boneyard in multiple trips.

I've already got a nice set of Miata spindles, and three different steering racks (MG MIdget, Spitfire, and V-dub Jetta - yes I know that's rear steer. But I've also had the thought of building this car as a right-hand driver, since road courses run clockwise...)

All Options are open, at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: December 9, 2017, 5:51 pm 
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Posts: 1897
Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
The Design Stage proceeds apace...

Pam and I would like to not be so limited by inclemency of weather, and thus, and enclosed vehicle becomes desirable. SO I can either create a fabric top and sides for this:

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...Or, build a hardtop coupe. It has to be something I can make with my own damn two hands, so flat panels are where I need to go, and I am enamored of teardrop trailers, so a tapered teardrop seems doable.

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The plan includes a full roll cage, and the doors would be steel-tube frames with 6061 .049 skins, the body would be the same as the B-3, .035 3003 alloy over the 1.0 sq 16 gage truss frame, with some 0.5 sq tube baent to shape the curved panels (just like the tailsection on the B-3).

Of course, there goes my 1200 lb weight goal, but perhaps 1500-1600 lbs would be reasonable. And, I'd just shown it to Pam, and she said "I like it", so it looks like I'm building a coupe.

In a couple weeks I have about 2 weeks off work so perhaps some boneyard harvesting will occur. Perhaps. On the other hand, I could absolutely start cutting metal, and the basic structure could be built without the drivetrain or rear axle. I've left enough room for several options. I still think a 150 hp engine will be plenty, and though the idea of a V6 has entered my mind - and seems to have stuck - a four banger would be lighter. Generally.

Not quite ready to cut metal yet...

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