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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: December 10, 2017, 1:06 pm 
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Posts: 310
Location: canada
As far as the coupe model: I think you've sacrificed outward-upward visibility too greatly, in favour of looks.
...Something I think you are already considering judging by the sightlines.

Unfortunately you are at the aesthetic limit of increases in greenhouse height.
IE, moving the existing dimension windshield upward off the cowl (and raising side window/greenhouse height to match) would look funny.
Extending the actual height of the windshield glass, same.
Leaning back the windshield more might allow you greater upward sightlines. Initially, I thought not ideal aesthetically but "hmmm..." you might get a windblown, expression of speed effect that could be ok, or more than OK.

But, here's what I'd do. I'm keeping in mind yours (and mine, as it happens) vintage airplane inspired "vibe"

Put approx 1/4 round (ie a 90* section of a pipe) polycarbonate additional viewing areas (not legally windshields), comprised of 2 or 3 adjoining partitions above the windshield header. WW2 style plane-reference, you know?

Also, what about giving up on the boat tail, & doing the roof as a roll back? To explain what I mean, look at the overall outline of the Voisin Aerosport and imagine using some type of insulated/corrugated roll up door (can include back window, maybe?). Nice days it would drop back into a roll which would form a rear bumper of a kind. Track days, take it off and leave the weight in the pits. Just brain storming, but... how 'wedded' to the boat tail are you?


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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: December 12, 2017, 1:51 pm 
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
yes, I'm giving away some upward visibility, but I'm not especially concerned about that. worst case I'll have to lean forward a bit to see traffic lights that hang above intersections, and I've had a couple cars where I already had to do that. I drive a Chevy HHR as my DD and often I can't see the hanging traffic lamps because of the lowered front roofline. its not that big a deal.

As far as the boat tail, well, yeah, that's a stylistic thing for me. I'm going for that same kind of 1930's vibe that the B-3 styling embraced, and the tapered tail is very much a part of that. I want to maintain the 1930s/hotrod/aircraft mashup styling that the B-3 embodies, and have a definite familial resemblance between the two vehicles.

I'm going back and forth about the body construction, and attaching the flat panels to the frame and roll structure. while it would be nice to keep the full cage of .095 wall 1.5 DOM, its going to make it difficult for me to mate the sharp corners of the top and sides. It would be a whole lot easier to make the body structure out of square tubing, with a braced roll bar at the rear, which the body structure would weld to, and then to which the aluminum body panels would be riveted and RTV sealed. It doesn't necessarily need an SCCA competition legal cage, and I could certainly up the tubing width and wall thickness to increase the crush strength thru the front part of the roof...

In fact, I think I've talked myself into that just now.

hmmmm.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: March 26, 2018, 7:24 am 
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
The Pamilcar project still crawls along, taking time out for winter, hereabouts, and the general interruptions caused by home-ownership.

But, it does proceed. The first shipment of steel for the chassis arrived exactly on the Wednesday of the 2-foot snowstorm, which was fun, I guess. I've also made some mods to the body and redesigned the LCA for easier (maybe?) fabrication.

Firstly, the body and doors got some tweaking shape-wise, and I did make the body framing structure out of 1.25 .083 square tube, which welds to a roll structure at the back of .095 wall DOM.

The updated chassis, front 3/4...

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...and rear 3/4.

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.

the chassis together, with the updated body and doors.

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The LCA design I'd come up with previously - and said that I'd be happy to build, and, in fact, I would be so - is a development of the B-3 control arm, which works really well, and has proven to be very sturdy, BUT, the welded angle joints between the long side tubes and the arm pivot bolt bosses were really labor intensive, and finicky to mate. I don't recall if I had to do any do-overs, but I do recall that it was a giant pain in the arse to form the tubular mitre/fishmouths.

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So, I've thought about that rather a lot and decided that bending the tubes, is a way to go to eliminate having to cut those funky joints (which would be more of a pain this time since the longer LCAs require shallower angles at that joint).

So here's the updated LCA...

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and installed at the front.

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In order to make this happen, the side tubes have to be 1.0 DOM with a .125 wall all the way to the ball joint mount, but I don't really mind that. Their strength will go up, and that's kewl, since the Pamilcar will be a few hundred pounds heavier than the B-3.

We are getting very close to active boneyard scrounging, and I am absolutely looking forward to that ;-)

So the proj proceeds, and preparation continues.

More, as it happens.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 16, 2018, 8:24 am 
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
This news is a couple weekends old, and some of you have already seen it on FB, but...

The Pamilcar has a donor! The Saturday before last Pam and I took a ride out to western MA, and, following an exchange of $500, I drove home in this, a 1985 Jag XJ6.

...pulling it out of the mud beside the seller's garage.

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He opened the hood and I saw this...

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...and I actually blurted out "Oh my god, the engine is beautiful!" The Seller thought I was being sarcastic because it was so dirty, but really, no, the classic Jag XK 4.2 six-banger? C'mon, its just lovely.

At one point the seller asked me, "How are you going to get it home?" to which I of course replied, "I'm going to drive it". His eyes got big-ish, and he looked surprised. I mean, how else would I get it home? If its a runner, I'm driving it. Why wouldn't you?

Anyway, the thing started up no problems (It had been a couple weeks since the last time it ran, he said), and, after a bit of warm-up settled into a smooth idle. we juggled a couple other cars (seller is inexplicably into Chryco K-cars) and I carefully worked it out around the side of the garage (without crushing any of his shrubbery) and out onto the street. That sufficed for a test drive, and everything important seemed to work just fine...engine, transmission, brakes, steering, etc. The turn signals didn't work, but the brake lights did. The sunroof worked!

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Looks really nice in the pics, doesn't it? yeah. It has no floors, if, by "floor" you mean "a barrier between the drivers feet, and the road passing by". Nope, none of that nonsense.

Drivers floor...see the ground? See the piece of scrap paneling which was subsequently jammed into place keep my feet off of said ground?

Yeah, Roadkill. ;-)

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passenger [lack of] floor...

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So anyway, we swapped money and I got the title, I stuck the HHR plates on it, and we took off, Pam in the lead driving her Civic. First stop, gas...it sputtered a time or two going that first mile-and a half to the nearest gas station. I filled both tanks, just because I could.

Yay gas! Look at me I'm driving a Jaaag!

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...and then we trucked along, without any real incident, even stopping for ice cream at Janine's, in North Brookfield, or Ware, or somewhere...

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Heat from the exhaust was blasting up thru the gaping holes in the floor, as well as hot oil stink, and a bit of rich exhaust. Pam led us on a really pleasant 50+ mile tour thru a bunch of little towns, I had the sunroof open, and the drivers window down (it would only go halfway, none of the other windows worked, to speak of), the Jaaag just motoring along without incident. It was great, really a good time. Until...

We were in Worcester, about 6 miles from home, passing by the WPI campus, when Pam braked sharply for some students entering a crosswalk. I had to brake a bit hard, and (as I subsequently discovered) the battery slid forward, and the positive terminal shorted out - and welded itself to - the passenger-side hood latch. The Jaaag died instantly, and I had a minor freak out, what with a string of cars behind me in the lane. I jumped out and pushed all 4075 lbs of dead XJ6 over to the side, and then back into a parking space I'd happened to stop just ahead of.

I opened the hood, and it was pretty immediately apparent what had happened. I shoved hard against the battery and separated the tiny weld (by this time Pam had back tracked to me), got in, turned the key once, the solenoid clicked, Turned the key again and it started right up as though nothing had happened. I pulled my tool box out of Pam's trunk, retrieved a bungie from the box, and strapped the battery to the firewall to prevent another such mishap.

Off we continued, arriving home a short 10 minutes later without any other incident.

In it's New Home!

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As I've mentioned before, it has no floors. The car is rusted out pretty catastrophically and shown - blurrily - here.

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over the weekend I received what I've been calling my "Jaaag Bible", an XJ6 series III factory service manual.

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So, the Pamilcar is going to get all the stuff out of the Jaaag, and truly become another Jaaag special. the suspension at both ends is on subframes which will get pulled out, disassembled, cleaned and painted, the Engine (that lovely old long-stroke XK six) and the transmission ( a Borg-Warner BW66 three speed autobox). I don't plan on doing much to the engine beyond perhaps freshening the gaskets and seals, and maybe the piston rings and valves, as it runs really good right now, and doesn't burn a drop. and I'll likely stay out of the BW66 as well, beyond a fluid and filter change, and adjusting the brake bands, since that worked pretty solidly the whole ride.

It needs a couple new calipers on the inboard rear brakes (one is stuck and doesn't work at all, discovered after taking the rear wheels off this past weekend), but that system will transfer over as well. I'm going to recover as much of the electronics as I can, certainly the entire engine management system.

Any performance increase this car sees will come from it losing over 2000 lbs of weight, metamorphosing from the XJ6, to the Pamilcar. I also feel like I can realistically get this one done in three years, as opposed to four for the B-3 quite a lot of which was learning.

Dudes, this build is now officially ON.

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Last edited by robbovius on April 16, 2018, 10:45 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 16, 2018, 9:11 am 
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Ohhh Myyyyy... You know the Brits found the cure for AIDS, don't you? They gave it a Jaguar part number, now nobody can afford it...

Not sure about the XJ rear brakes, but in the E-Type, those inboard brakes are a bee-yotch to work on. My buddy Jackson, who works on 'em for a living, loaned me some "Jag tools" he uses to get to the calipers after I gave up on it. YMMV, Hope I'm wrong about this, etc, etc...

But that Twin-Cam Six IS a gorgeous piece of work and they sound SOOOOOO good when blowin' thru an open exhaust!

Good luck!
:cheers:
JDK

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 16, 2018, 10:33 am 
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GonzoRacer wrote:
Ohhh Myyyyy... You know the Brits found the cure for AIDS, don't you? They gave it a Jaguar part number, now nobody can afford it...

Good luck!
:cheers:
JDK


DAMMIT JD, now I have to wipe coffee off my monitor and keyboard.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 16, 2018, 10:37 am 
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Location: worcester county, Massachsetts
Thanks JD.

I've been in heavy research mode. The Jaaag learning curve has been steep-ish. So far I have found that to service the rear brakes, one must remove the rear subframe, with the rear suspension in its entirety. My initial plan has been to weld both front and rear subbies into the Pamilcar chassis (to simplificate and add lightness), but we shall see how that goes.

As long as I can maintain access to the calipers and their fasteners, I should be good to go.

Oh, and this chassis is going to be constructed in pure Balchowsky mode, chalk lines on a cement floor.

I'd forgotten how much fun it was to do these photo essays ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 17, 2018, 1:30 am 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
LOL!! I recall back in the day when I was a financially-strapped college student - when I needed work done on my car that I couldn't do myself, I took it to my friendly local tuning shop. I knew all the guys there, and they were always ready to have me do jobs they hated on other cars, in exchange for them working on my car.

I was once given the task of changing the rear disc pads on an E-type. I peered under the car from the side, then the rear, then the front, and the shop owner looked at me and said "You have to start by taking out the back seat, carpet, etc.". Then he explained that the rear subframe bolts were in the back seat area under the carpet, and the whole works had to be dropped just to access the brake pads.

Much as I love "Jaaaaags" (to quote Jeremy Clarkson), that one always mystified me. How could they engineer such a fabulous car, yet design it so a normal, everyday maintenance item would require so much (expensive!!) work? :BH:

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 17, 2018, 3:03 pm 
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I started to type in an anecdote about a personal experience with bad automotive design, realized how *many* vehicles I worked on were designed by people who hated cars and the people who service them, and began wondering if there's some automaker conspiracy behind it all.

I probably should up the dosage of my medication, but They have hidden the bottle...

edit: I think the big six will be a hoot in something like the Pamilcar, and with a proper split exhaust it ought to sound awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 18, 2018, 11:34 am 
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zetec7 wrote:
How could they engineer such a fabulous car, yet design it so a normal, everyday maintenance item would require so much (expensive!!) work? :BH:
...and...
TRX wrote:
...realized how *many* vehicles I worked on were designed by people who hated cars and the people who service them, and began wondering if there's some automaker conspiracy behind it all.
This is going back 50 years, but according to legend, Sir William Lyons believed it was a civil responsibility for luxury car makers to support mechanics, and that someone sufficiently well-to-do to own a Jaguar should be gracious about the employment needs of the less fortunate. I don't know if it was a true story, but it inspired me to take my toolbox from Cal's (where I worked exclusively on VWs) To Continental Auto Repair (where I specialized in Jaguars).
GonzoRacer wrote:
Ohhh Myyyyy... You know the Brits found the cure for AIDS, don't you? They gave it a Jaguar part number, now nobody can afford it...
Not only were parts expensive, but they took a long time to install. I thought the Flat Rate Book was wildly generous (which is a good thing for a professional mechanic) until the first time I pulled the engine out of an XKE (or more accurately, removed an XKE from its engine); yes, an XKE does take ten times as long as a VW bus, that book wasn't kidding.

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 18, 2018, 1:22 pm 
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Jack McC said:
Quote:
the first time I pulled the engine out of an XKE (or more accurately, removed an XKE from its engine); yes, an XKE does take ten times as long as a VW bus, that book wasn't kidding.
I replaced the clutch slave cylinder on my E-Type once. I found that there was one of the mounting bolts that I could only reach with my left hand while lying down with my back to the car. It took a while just to figure that out and even longer to remove and then replace that bolt. Didn't help that it was all done by braille, since I never did see where that bolt hole actually was. :BH:

But Ohhhhh, when that Twin-Cam Six was "on song" up around 4 grand, the sound was just orgasm inducing!!! :twisted:

Peace, Love, and "Greatest Crumpet Catcher" -
JDK

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 18, 2018, 2:42 pm 
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I am happily finding out that everything you've all written is true, which only endears that car more to me. Not quite enough to save it, but certainly enough to give it new life in the Pamilcar Jaaag Special...which is what it's name has grown into, and I'm digging.

The Great Disassembly begins!

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Detail pics later, I'm heading out to the driveway for some measuring and inspection...

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 18, 2018, 3:28 pm 
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TRX you have a PM

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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 19, 2018, 4:24 pm 
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So anyway...

I had a solid wrassle with the Jaaag yesterday, getting it up on the jacks, and then beginning the process of disassembly.

I've mentioned before, I think, that this thing is pretty catastrophically rusted out. The previous owner had the idea that all it needed - to be returned to some sort of daily-use roadworthiness - would be fabricating and welding in new floors underneath the driver's and passengers front footwells. He'd also mentioned that he'd turned a couple of buyers away who'd said they were going to part the car out.

That's not my intent. This car will see solid road use again, but not in the form of a rusty old XJ6...It's gonna be a hand-built Jaaag Special. The more time I have spent around, and especially underneath it, the more convinced I am that its rather more unsalvageable than not. It looks real pretty, sure does, but, damn. If you look up underneath, and simply breathe hard at it, rust and dirt shower down. Trust me.

So, anyway, getting up onto the jackstands was a bit more work than I'd expected, mostly because I clung to the fool idea of using the factory lift/jackstand points, which worked fine, except for under the drivers corner, because, well, it seems there's no structure there anymore.

oh my, that's a bit crushy, don't you think? Jack the Stand asks "Did I do that?"

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Yes, Jack, you did, and left a fine pile of debris.

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Eventually I stopped being stupid, and realized I could place the stands underneath the big bolt bosses where the front subframe attaches, and that worked out really well, and is where its sitting in the pic I posted upthread yesterday. Of course, now the doors don't open so easily.

My plan had been to get under the back end and measure the rear suspension subframe for CAD modeling, but once under there I realized that wasn't happening since the body itself was too close around the subframe to measure much.

I just kind of chilled under there, looking around at things and familiarizing myself with component placements and mounting, and then thought, "well, this rear and isn't going to take itself out" and started working that aspect of the proj.

removing the radius arms seemed a good start and I got out some sockets and my biggest breaker ratchet, and the Jaaag even suckered me a bit, letting one of the rusty old forward arm bolts unthread easily. But then another bolt head broke off, and then the arm itself was not interested in de-mounting from its boss, having long ago rust-welded itself to the body of the car, so, Ryobi recip-saw to the rescue.

"you can have one bolt!" sez the Jaaag. "RZZZZZZZZGRRRRZZZZRT!" sez the Ryobi. "Ha! That was fun! Side two!" sez I...

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I'm such a hack. Right? See what I did there? Heh. Sometimes the jokes just write themselves.

So, anyway, more recip-saw fun was had removing the two tail-end mufflers and stainless tailpipes tucked up into the rear quarters - I saved the tailpipes, just cuz - and the sections of pipe that wind thru the rear suspension. That last involved actually undoing some bolts, which the Jaaag gave up easily.

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Sidenote: way back in the day, when I worked at Midas Muffler (in between engineering jobs) I can recall gas welding those mufflers back onto the pipes they'd rusted away from in a series II XJ6 (circa 1979)

Then, four easy bolts and the driveshaft was undone...

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...and then I started considering the brake lines and parking brake cable.

I'd mentioned in the initial Jaaag posting, that the passenger side rear caliper wasn't working. I thought it was simply stuck, and was not unsurprised to see that the rear calipers themselves were pretty solidly rusted all over themselves, though the driver's side worked okay-ish (going by the smoothed surface of the rotor) BUT...

I got way up under there and started poking around with my fingers and flashlight, and I was surprised to find that the brake pads had been replaced, and not too long ago, going by the non-rusty pad pins and pin clips...

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...And, what's also shown in that picture, is the reason that the passenger side caliper doesn't work at all. See that green brake pipe that's been clipped off, folded over, and soldered shut? Yeah. C'mon, man, what the actual faaaack. Seriously?

It's seems I've also saved this grand old Brit-bomb from high levels of dubious and secretive hackery. I have embraced The Way of the Jaaag.

I clipped that heavily rusted parking brake cable, and then did some investigation on the hub carriers. I was planning on freshening the U-joints anyway, but it so happens the drivers side has a nice .25 inch of play in the joint on the wheel end, passenger side only slightly less.

I started the process of un-bolting the 8 through-bolts which attach the rear subframe mounts to the body, but only got two of them before it was time to call it a day, mostly because the nuts on the inner ends of the bolts are badly rusted (like everything else on this car), and the heads inside the fender wells had been covered with black RTV at some point. the two I got out did come undone pretty easily though, which bodes well for the rest of them.

Did I mention that this car uses standard fasteners? Yup. That was a bit surprising.

Today is rainy, so no driveway fun at lunchtime (I work from home two days a week) though I did get out there and take a couple measurements.

Lastly, the chassis design has begun.

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pamiljaaag1.JPG
pamiljaaag1.JPG [ 87.72 KiB | Viewed 614 times ]


Very preliminary, but with a few of the components placed and the chassis going together around them. 110 inch wheelbase (down from the XJ6 113), engine pushed back about 8 inches behind the front axle, and 2 inches wider than the B3. Major structure is 1.25 sq .083 wall tube. Tires in the model are 215/70-15s as came off the Jaaag.

The drawing is also started, and what I've got now is certainly enough to get a structure built that would allow me to place/mount the suspension, engine, and tranny, and get the thing on it's wheels. the goal is a roller by September.

I showed the rendering to Pam and she said "It looks like a race car!" yup. ;-)

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My build log: http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=13941


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 Post subject: Re: The Pamilcar
PostPosted: April 20, 2018, 8:20 am 
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Joined: October 19, 2012, 9:25 pm
Posts: 2692
Location: Summerville, SC
The good news is the front suspension and subframe stuff should be a lot less rusty. Every Brit car I've ever touched were "self protecting" in those areas from all the oil that constantly leaked.

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OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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