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 Post subject: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: October 28, 2017, 5:55 pm 
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Ok, so a little back story. I arrived on this site about two years ago from the IRS (Independent Rear Suspension) forum while looking into an IRS for a '33 Ford Vicky replica I bought ten years ago. It was from a company called Streetbeasts, and if anyone knows of them, they were REALLY bad kits. They went out of business right after I got my kit. I had gotten started on it early on, but the quality of the frame was so bad, it really couldn't be fixed. The welds were full of porosity, incomplete, poor penetration, etc. You get the idea. I got so discouraged, the project languished for the next eight or so years. Then I finally decided to look into getting the project back on track, and while investigating options for an iRS, that site kept referencing how innovative the folks on here were when it came to overcoming obstacles like fitting an IRS. The more I lurked, the more I realized that I could really do a LoCost much faster, and for a lot less, than doing the Vicky. Already had the engine, trans, etc. So the Vicky sits. Now my 17 year old is in the Automotive Technology and Diesel program at the local Vo-Tech. I figured, what better way to stoke the interest and experience than building a car. Now that I have built the frame for the LoCost, I am not afraid to build a simple ladder type frame for the Vicky. Material will be picked up for the frame and cut, mitered, and welded up in the next two weeks. In the spirit of the LoCost program, I have a 2008 Ford Crown Victoria that is no longer necessary. It has a pretty bad body, but the engine only has about 125,000 miles, and runs like a clock. Probably going to swap the auto for a T-45 from a Mustang. The rear is a 3.55 gear, Posi with disk brakes. So I think it only fitting that we keep a Ford in a Ford, and ironically a Crown Vic in a Vicky! I told him he has to build it, I"ll only help as necessary. We can narrow the rear (I have the stuff to do that), keep the factory disks, and just get a set of shorter axles from Moser. I'm going to try to use the factory front spindles and ball joints. I'll probably have to make custom control arms, but I think they will work with a Mustang II crossmember from Paul Hortons Welder Series. Worst case MII spindles and a brake kit. I'd like to keep the Crown Vic units, as we are going to try to keep the anti-lock brakes in the system. Let the build begin!

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: November 1, 2017, 11:21 am 
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Sounds like a great project 8) ..My 14 and 17 year old daughters have no interest in old cars, so it seems I'll be the end of the 'car enthusiast' line in this family.. Your kid is blessed to have a dad with the tools, interest, and know how to allow him go out there and build, make mistakes, and know there's a safety net if he needs it.. way cool.. please post lots of pics of the Vicky-Vicky project as it unfolds..

--ccrunner

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: November 17, 2017, 7:44 pm 
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I wanted to make sure that the Boy's first build experience was more build, less cut apart, so I took a bit more time to think this chassis through, and make sure we had a clear path forward. I'm glad I did. One of the big problems with these kits was the width of the body vs. the width of the chassis and suspension. Very difficult to get the wheels inside the front fenders even with LOT'S of offset. On a couple of forums dedicated to these types of kits, I see that a fair amount of people resort to widening the fenders / running boards. Lets face it, that sounds like a tedious, pia job. BUT, not the end of the world if you don't mind working with 'glass (I don't), and the benefits are being able to get a wider front track, keep the wheels inside the fenders, and a more aggressive stance. More in line with the Factory Five '33.
So, I'm going to widen the chassis from 30" outside to 32-1/2" all the way from front to back. Now, I can use the Corvette C4 front cradle complete, just as with the 7. I'm going to use the center section, half shafts, and the hubs I modified from a 2004 GTO to work with unequal length A arms. Posi, 3:36 ratio, hubs w/disk brakes and parking brake.
I did a workup in VSusp, and came up with this: https://tinyurl.com/y9xdenyb
The plan to use the Crown Vic as a donor ran into some logistical issues. 1) I still have the '88 Camaro that I'm listing as the donor for the 7 down back out of sight. 2) I don't really have the space in the Man Cave to strip the Crown Vic properly given the work load I have going in and out, and doing it in the driveway is problematic because we have new neighbors across the street (about a year ago), and they are, shall we say, odd. They have gotten into it with every neighbor but us so far. I don't want to give them something to bitch about, and have the town show up snooping around. The whole "You're running a business out of the house" routine...which I am... So, I think I'll sell the Crown Vic, take what I can get out of it, and put the money back into the Vicky. I'll take a bit of a hit, but the alternative may be fatal! Still up in the air on a powertrain. I may opt for a 2.3 or 3.5 / 3.7 ecoboost. Just may have to save a bit longer as they are still commanding a premium, and are hard to find as a "Pullout".
I'm picking up the 2" x 4" 11ga. tubing for the main rails tomorrow. Should have something to show in pictures by Sunday afternoon. I hope!

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: November 19, 2017, 10:36 pm 
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Got the pieces cut for the frame from the rear kick up to the front kick up point all tacked up. 2-1/2" wider than the original. Checked it and it's within 1/16" square. 8) Made up two gussets for the rear kick up, where they used a couple of pieces of 1/4" flatbar on the original chassis, we used two pieces of 2" mech. tubing. That bad boy ain't going NOWHERE! Over Thanksgiving, we'll roll the C4 sub-frame under and calculate the proper angles and length for the forward kick up.


Attachments:
File comment: Full View
fullview.jpg
fullview.jpg [ 1.75 MiB | Viewed 2611 times ]
File comment: Rear Kick up
rearkickup.jpg
rearkickup.jpg [ 1.9 MiB | Viewed 2612 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: November 21, 2017, 1:22 pm 
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Mocked the differential in place, using a 26" diameter tire , 7" ground clearance. At this location, half shafts have a slight downward angle from the diff to the knuckle. One problem. And I should have known because I always hated how high the Streetbeasts rode. To have the differential at this location, with the half shafts set up the way they SHOULD be set up, we end up with a pretty high trans tunnel. I'm shooting for a shallow to "No" trans tunnel, at least as far back as the back of the front seats. This thing doesn't have any more room seating wise than a +442e LoCost! In order to get a couple of decent buckets, or a bench for that matter, I really need a flat floor. To that end, I have called the Driveshaft Shop, and inquired about possibly using a two piece shaft, with a carrier bearing. The rear part of the shaft would need to be about 18" to 24" long, dropping 5" along the way. Probably going to have to be a cv type of shaft. Then the forward shaft would be below the floorpan all the way from the back of the seats to the transmission. We'll see what they have to say!


Attachments:
driveshaft2.jpg
driveshaft2.jpg [ 1.37 MiB | Viewed 2560 times ]
File comment: Note: Lower cross piece in front of flange is only a temporary brace!
driveshaft1.jpg
driveshaft1.jpg [ 1.8 MiB | Viewed 2560 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: November 25, 2017, 12:24 pm 
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Mad a few tweaks in the pumpkin location. If we drop it so that the driveshaft just clears the original tunnel (about 3" high), it puts the half shafts at an upward angle of about 5-6 degrees. I think I can live with the original tunnel size. Junior may just be a bit cramped... It eliminates the need for a two piece shaft and carrier bearing, and still allows me to have the 26" diameter tires and a 7" ride height in the back. Going with a 6" ride height in the front, she'll have a nice Hot Rod rake

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: December 1, 2017, 8:36 pm 
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We got the front kickups in place. At 12*, the front cradle slips into place, puts the front of the chassis just aft of the kickup at 7", which coincidentally, is just where the C4 is. Rear is now at 8" so we have a nice hot rod rake. Talked to Driveshaft Shop, and the angles on the half shafts are good, just have to get a pair of custom shortened ones. Turns out, they are no more expensive than a set of standard axles for say, an 8.8, since we are going with the stock hp rating (about 350), not the 1000 hp ones... So we are now well on our way to executing the rest of the chassis. Weekend plans include salvaging the firewall framing and rear bulkhead framing from the original chassis, and tacking them in place on the new one to start getting a feel for where some of the other stuff is going to end up.


Attachments:
VickyFront2.jpg
VickyFront2.jpg [ 1.39 MiB | Viewed 2450 times ]
VickyFront1.jpg
VickyFront1.jpg [ 1.42 MiB | Viewed 2450 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: December 9, 2017, 9:40 am 
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Kind of a two week hiatus, EVERYONE in the damn house was / is sick as a Dog! :ack: I started it two weeks ago, and am on the tail end of it. Going to try to get some time with Jr. on some of the welding this afternoon. In the meantime, I spent a fair amount of time going through the project in my head. Long story short, decided that the Rotary was just logistically not worth the extra effort. I did however, find a way to strip out the Crown Vic. without pissing off the one neighbor (as if it takes any effort at all!). So with that in mind, and keeping with "Keeping it Moving" so Jr. doesn't lose sight of the end game, I rethought using the C4 front suspension. Would have looked cool as hell, but again, adds too much potentially unnecessary work. It is going to be a mix of MII and custom components. I spent quite a bit of time with Vsusp, and the Speedway website. I ordered a MII crossmember kit from Paul Horton's "Welder Series". $160.00 US. Can't beat that with a stick!. I modeled the front suspension around Flaming River's 21.5" manual rack. I can narrow the MII crossmember by 1.5", and all should fall into place. Gives me a track width of 53-1/2", so if I use the 11" MII front brake kit from Speedway, I won't have a major penalty with the 1/2" per side increase in track width and have to use wheels with a huge offset. It will allow me to keep the wheels inside the fenders with clearance, and not HAVE to cut the fenders. We will go with a EPS unit so the Wife can drive it too.
Another benny popped up, so to speak, with the position of the rear differential. With it in its new lower location, I can use the Aluminum fuel tank that came with the kit, probably without having to tweak it at all.
And on a final note, the wife surprised the hell out of me by telling me she REALLY wanted a manual trans in the car!. So, we are back to a Stick. I think I'll have some leverage when we go to the NSRA Street Rod Nationals next August.... :wink:

Edit 12/17: Vsusp: https://tinyurl.com/yayf9m4a

I know it isn't great on the camber gain in bump, but for what the car is, and the constraints involved, I think it is a good compromise. If anyone has any input on this, good or bad, please comment.

I'm going to give this a few days to digest, and recheck it. If I don't see anything I missed, or anyone on the forum doesn't find a major flaw in my setup, I'm going shopping at Speedway. That way between Christmas and New Year, I can get a real quality week in with Jr., and seriously jump start this project!

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Last edited by Dismantalus on December 17, 2017, 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: December 9, 2017, 10:26 am 
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I probably should have mentioned that we revisited the rear suspension, and decided to go IRS. It wasn't because it was sexy or cool (it is), but because it allowed me to get the differential low enough for the driveshaft to clear the tunnel, and not have the arse end sitting up like a refugee from a Monster Truck. To that end, the 2004 GTO differential went in. The other "Issue" that these cars had, was that they originally were designed to use a Fox body stick axle. You can only narrow it so much, and then you had interference issues with the triangulated four link suspension. By going with our own new chassis, and the IRS, I can move the rear upright in, and still have some nice fat meats, without fender clearance issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: December 17, 2017, 11:01 pm 
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A couple of shots of minor progress of late And also a shot of the shock tower from the original frame. Most of the welding on the frame was like this. Especially the suspension attaching points. For all of you out there that are questioning your welding skills, take a look at this. This was done by a "Certified" welder. They sold this sh*t to the public. This looks like 20 years in the trade, 2 years experience.... Don't sell yourselves short, and keep at it. As I said from the get go with Omterry, with the right equipment, the right wire, and some time under the hood, it WILL come. And for anyone that still has problems, plenty of people here that you can ask. With all the advice I've gotten in other areas that I was lacking, I'm more than willing to help anyone out that needs it on the welding front.


Attachments:
File comment: Rear bulkhead salvaged as well. Differential in situ.
RearBulkhead.jpg
RearBulkhead.jpg [ 1.72 MiB | Viewed 2231 times ]
File comment: Salvaged front bulkhead. Welds were not TOO bad..
FronBulkhead.jpg
FronBulkhead.jpg [ 1.74 MiB | Viewed 2231 times ]
File comment: Labeled this one DS1, for obvious reasons.
DS1.jpg
DS1.jpg [ 1.77 MiB | Viewed 2231 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: December 18, 2017, 10:02 pm 
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That's some nice weldin' raht dere :ack:. Makes me feel like I know what I'm doing glueing metal together, and you and I both know how thin that is.

FWIW, the reason I'm building is because you convinced, then taught me I could do it myself, and it's true. Good wire is a godsend. Can't say good from cheap equipment, because I went never tried the cheap stuff. I did not needing another set of variables to go wrong as I was learning, but I suspect the Miller makes me a better welder by far.

All the above is just getting in the way of saying that you are making good progress on TWO cars. Amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: December 19, 2017, 7:13 am 
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The interesting thing about that DS1 picture, is that the material is 1/4" thick steel. Should not have been any problem with blow through. It's just a cold, erratic, and undercut piece of, well, DS! (I'd like to apologize to all of the Dogs out there for the comparison)

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: December 22, 2017, 8:43 pm 
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I've been spending a fair amount of time in the evenings perusing the interwebs for thoughts on pushrod suspension rocker design, placement, etc. I just found the winner. It even incorporates the sway bar! This one is on a front suspension, but it is perfect for the rear of the Vicky.


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File comment: Not from a LoCost car, but the application is perfect!
lp700_71.jpg
lp700_71.jpg [ 284.84 KiB | Viewed 2102 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: January 8, 2018, 7:35 pm 
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Looking for someone that has a good grasp of Vsusp to take a look at the rear suspension geometry that I have worked out given the packaging in the back of the car. Truly 10# in a 2# sack.... https://tinyurl.com/yaammwy6
I have virtually no movement in my roll center, but It looks like I have a bit of excessive camber gain in bump, but a very reasonable camber change in roll. Keeping in mind that this is a Street Rod, most of the hours driving it will be back and forth to places and events. With an occasional auto-x hopefully at the NSRA events.... So general highway manners are a higher priority than track.

Edit: Modified the upper connection by dropping it 1". Dropped my roll center a bit, but not too bad. New numbers: 1.069* gain in bump, and about 1.6* positive gain at 3* of roll. Comments welcome.
https://tinyurl.com/yabeua8k

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 Post subject: Re: Justin's Vicky
PostPosted: January 10, 2018, 9:25 pm 
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Picked up some more materials for the build. Some 1/4" x 2" flat bar, 10' of 1-1/2 .120" wall DOM for the lower control arms, and some 2" x 2" x 1/8" structural tubing to fabricate the cage for the IRS. Should be a productive Sunday this week!

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