LocostUSA.com

I'm still open to using a solid rear, but I think I'm going to use what I have for right now.. Plus I have a few hours into drawing that Vette rear =)

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Making minimal progress at the moment Need my motor and transmission to finish the frame design. I'm back to reconsidering motors, and I think I'll go with an LS1/T56 combo that come together so I'm not missing any pieces, and I know that everything fits.. but that's contingent on finding a super deal. If there are none to be had, I'll have to buy a T56 separate, then buy the 5.3 L33 motor and hope that everything works out by just pretending its an LS1 anyway.

Remodeling the frame in SolidWorks yet again to try and implement all of the various changes I've made in each of the 3 final frames, all into one frame. Tedious, but almost there. Really hoping to be cutting steel soon, but want the motor/trans modeled, fitted, and the end frame design FEA'd first.

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Hey Jesse....

Good luck finding a good LS1 / T56 combo for a good price. They're getting harder to come by and most have been beat on pretty hard. Probably has to do with the fact that LS1 / T56's as a combo (ie engine trans package) are only available in a few select packages (F-body / GTO / CTS-V). Yes the Vette uses those same parts, but the T56 is a transaxle configuration so it doesn't help you. F-body has been out of production since '02, GTO was a 3 year special (1 or 2 years of which were the LS2 anyway), and the CTS-V was pretty upscale and came with the LS6.

Also, did anybody mention that the LS1 block isn't really rebuildable? It's capable of a .005 to .010" cleanup overbore only, not the traditional .030" or more of a SBC. What that means is that for alot of high mileage motors, the blocks are worn out. Sleeving a block is $2k+, new block is $800+.

So, buying a worn out low dollar motor with the intentions of rebuilding it might be the expensive choice.

Also to consider: There are 3 basic accessory drive layouts (Truck package, F-body package, and the Vette package). They all mount the AC compressor in about the same spot, but the alternator is up high on the truck and vette package and down low on the f-body package. Also, the length of the motor changes (truck is the longest by about 2", then fbody, shortest is the vette stuff).

Lots of things to look at. The L33 might be cheaper, depending upon what you can score, even having to source a bunch of parts seperately.

'JustDreamin'

Yep, I might have a hard time finding one in good shape, and its unfortunate that you can't really rebore any of the aluminum blocks because of the sleeves. I was tempted to use the Vette LS motor with the transaxle and torque tube, but I haven't found one of those for a good price either. Really my plan was to just find one with reasonable mileage that was a runner, and go with it..

Tricky too, because I want the vette oil pan and intake, the F-body accessory setup... This applies to the L33 as well. Am I correct that any T56 that came with an LS1, LS6, or LS2 should then fit the L33 with no further parts, other than adding the 6 speed flywheel?

I've seen deals here and there, usually already sold, or way too far away for LS1's in the $1200 range on craigslist.. (Junkyards here want $4000 for LS1's!)
The L33's seem to go for about $1200 as well, but from a junkyard... They don't really seem to be available from private sellers.
Pretty much any T56 goes for 1500 or more, in unknown condition... or a rebuilt unit for around 1900 on ebay..

Edit: Maybe a wrecked v8 Camaro for parts would be a better route?

Any other suggestions, or places to look? Thanks!

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I've been looking at buying a donor c-5 vette for parts on another build, not next week mind you but in the next 6months to a year. I would not need the trans or possibly the engine either. it would be nice to make so money back from the donor car and help out someone here. just FYI

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build log
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3507

Other toys:
2001 Z06 (supercharged )
2003 CBR600RR

I appreciate that, let me know how things go.

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All kind of thoughts jump to mind, so I'll try to get them all out in some semblance of order.

The vette drivetrain is unique, in that the torque tube is not easily shortened. I believe it can be, but it's not like you're going to take it to the local driveshaft shop and have it done, you're looking at a very specialized operation. That kinda fixes the drivetrain length, which is pretty long. Might be ok for some applications, may be too long for others or vice versa.

Which vette pan are you wanting? There are 2 I can think of. The LS1 "Batwing" pan or the LS2 pan (looks like a normal pan). All of the oilpans interchange (LSx platform motors) so its a matter of deciding which shape you want.

Accessories-wise, the truck system is the most plentiful and least expensive. The f-body is next cheapest, followed by the CTS-V / C5 / C6 stuff. Not sure where the FWD stuff falls.

The truck intake is big and ugly, but makes great torque. It performs better than the LS1 intake, but not as good as the LS6 intake (for HP, still beats it for tq). But its big, ugly, and tall.

T56's are a tough one. You can take your chances on a used one, either a takeout or a wrecked f-body and part it yourself. But you still are taking a significant risk of buying a good core or something with a significant problem that you won't find until you put it behind the motor and apply power. Never a fun time to discover a problem. Or spend the $$$ and get a rebuilt one from a rebuilder, or pick up a decent core and rebuild it yourself (if you've got the time, tools, patience, and skills). No easy choices there. The newest f-bodys are 8 years old. And they've been behind 300hp motors, potentially driven by complete idiots (you never know the whole story). Should make anybody a little nervous. And, I'm assuming you know that the LT1 and LS1 T56's are different (input shaft length for one) and don't interchange directly.

I've used Car-Part.com for some stuff and had good success. I bought the LQ4 / 4L80E combo that's in my '99 Bravada off of there. Also the bits and pieces for the C5 access drive. I've found that yards in Ohio are a BUNCH cheaper than in my area (Baltimore area). My 2004 LQ4 / 80E came out of New Hampshire, the set cost me $2k complete ($1200 / $800) 2.5 years ago. Not sure where prices have gone in that time (haven't been shopping for a motor), so your results may vary. I bought a starter and an alternator out of yards in Ohio, and not only where they cheap, the parts looked brand new (I've never seen such a good looking starter) and they worked.

I'm reasonably certain that the L33 / T56 should be a direct boltup. Some early truck motors (like '99 or '00) had a different crankshaft that would keep them from bolting up, but the late model stuff should be ok (as far as I'm aware, but I'm no expert).

Anyway, that's my .02 (maybe more).

Good luck with your project.

'JustDreamin'

The wheelbase on my frame is about 100", so it wouldn't be hard to modify slightly to use the torque tube with its length unchanged.

The LS1 batwing pan is the plan I was planning on using, it was the shallowest from what I've seen. Should also already be baffled for more of a "road race" application as well.

I've been looking on car-parts.com as well, but I've never actually bought anything thru them. I'd really be happy with any LS motor setup, I just need to pick one up so I can measure and dimension it for my frame.

As far as used engines and transmissions go... I'm hoping to find a good one of each. I'll test the engine for compression and look it over, hopefully a lower mileage engine.. The trans I can at least check the fluid in, feel how it shifts if it has a shifter still.. The trans I could have rebuilt at some point at least, the motor needs to just be good from the start.. Maybe I'd be better off looking to an LS2/T56 from a GTO, although some parts have changed, and things are a bit more expensive for them..

I guess I'll continue looking into L33's and try and find a T56 in good shape.

I did see a CTS-v t56 on ebay, they bolted to the LS6, so that should still work with the L33 right? Maybe I'll try and score that one..

Thanks!

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I'm not sure that there is any baffling in the batwing pan. I don't think there is anything like a trapdoor setup that you'd find in a roadcourse pan. I'd suggest doing some research over on LS1Tech.com, specifically the conversion forums. There are pictures of pretty much every oilpan available in there somewhere (I think its even a sticky).

The CTS-V spec one should be ok. Not sure of the gear ratios or if anything else significant changed, but it should bolt up / function. GTO units should be fair game, as well as SSR T56's (although they've got a deeper 1st gear which means reduced torque capacity).

'JustDreamin'

There are actually 3 corvette oil pans. There is a one piece batwing, a two piece batwing and the LS2/3 pan. On the two piece batwings, the bottom part of the sump bolts on. The other thing is that the pan is only 1/4" or so more shallow than the F-Body pan and depending on where your lower rails are, it could interfere.

The two piece batwing pan could allow you to put some baffling and/or trap doors in there. I think there is someone making a trapdoor baffle for the LS2/3 pan.

Hmm.. I remember thinking it at least had a windage tray in it, but I could be wrong

I'm mostly price motivated on the CTS-v trans, as its $1400 and within easy driving range. As I look though, it has a pretty goofy shifter mechanism that is pretty far rearward.. I also remember reading about some other things being different on it.. I just dont want to run into trouble later trying to find parts for a one-off T56.

Edit: So three Vette pans, none of them baffled or anything? That seems odd.. No worries on the pan getting in the way of my frame rails, as the frame is being designed around the pan.. Hence my need for one soon, lol.. Thanks!

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All of the LSx motors run a windage tray. Trucks, vette, f-body (which is shortened by the first 3" or so to avoid the oilpan which is extremely shallow in that area) all run a windage tray. Just stamped steel, nothing special, but it is there.

What I was talking about is I don't think there are any trapdoors / baffles / etc. in the batwing pan like a circle track or roadrace pan would have. And since they're cast alum, they're not as easy to modify as a stamped steel pan (which there aren't many of for the LSx motors).

'JustDreamin'

Jesse to be honest I don't like your rendition (with the red mudguards) missing the framework above/behind the front wheels compared to the green avatar model - really looks out of proportion.

Why don't you run an auto? You only got 2 feet!

Seriously, the torque to weight ratio of yours will be huge making an auto a good choice for controlability - IMO of course.

Well thanks Cheapracer! Haha, I totally agree on that screeenshot. The reason its missing those tubes is because I've been going three different directions at once with the frame.. Only now have I combined the best parts of those three into one frame. The shot above the one with the red mudflaps is the current frame model - Note that the aesthetic tubes in the front are back, along with a simplified roll bar package, shortened rear, taller upper to lower base framework, and narrowed front and rear framework.

Aesthetic tubes in the front were removed while I was narrowing the frame (was still in the process in the screenshot with the red fenders), as it was tough to get them looking right again. They also get removed when I did previous FEA testing on the frame, as they were really only meant for looks.

Simplified single roll bar in the back cuts down on weight, makes it easier to build, legal to race, and hopefully safer in a rollover. I really preferred the twin roll bars, but I'll admit this one will be easier to build, and has less tubing in the back (tubing that would have to be somehow removeable to install and service fuel cells, rear suspension, fuel system, etc)

The rear was shortened after I installed the rear suspension assy and noticed I had about 9 inches of space behind the differential... Previously, it was space to be occupied by the fuel cell, but things got a bit tight for that, and I opted to go with a dual linked fuel cell setup that sits just forward of the differential.

Height of the base frame to upper base frame was increased by 1 inch to accomodate the front suspension, and it worked out to be perfect for the rear as well. The sides of the car are now 17" from center to center, or 18.5" from bottom of the lower tube to top of upper tube.

The front and rear frames were narrowed to accommodate the front and rear suspension. No mystery here, I just did not have the dimensions for the suspension pickup points when I first designed the frame. This did throw things out of proportion a bit, but I think they're back on track now. Soon I'll have an updated picture with the new frame, assembled with all the goodies.

And Automatic? Are you kidding?! No way.. I went auto on my last car for that reason... I love stoplight racing with it, but the auto generally drives me crazy.. I'd never take it to a road course, it just wouldn't be any fun.. I manual shift the automatic most of the time anyway, but it doesn't like it when I downshift it..
Not to mention, one unpredictable downshift on its part, and I'm somewhere spun out... Trust me, it happens..

but thank you for the criticism, its good to have =)

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Personally, I think a manual is a good choice. But, it really depends upon your intended usage.

I've always found that the auto can't anticipate my actions (on the street or a roadcourse), and misreads some others. Downshifting when it shouldn't isn't a good thing, and a hard upshift when it really needs to hold the gear (say the middle of a high g corner) isn't a great thing either (leads to some excitement). Some of that can be tuned out (either electronically or mechanically), some of that could be rectified with a full manual valvebody (which isn't any fun on the street) or paddle-shifting, and some of that may just have to be lived with.

And then you've got the parasitic losses to deal with, they eat a fair bit more power than a manual.

However, the torque convertor and point and shoot aspect make them a bunch better for dragstrip duty. They launch better and are much more consistent, along with faster shifts.

Ultimately it's all about what you want and what you want to do with the vehicle.

'JustDreamin'