LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:20 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Reverse Trike in Ontario
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 17
Location: Trenton, Ontario
Hi all.

I've been reading through all the existing posts on registering vehicles on Ontario, and come across the fact that reverse trikes can't be registered in Ontario unless they are from a manufacturer.

I have read through the Ministry of Transportation's guidelines and the definition of a 3 wheeled motor trike is a motorcycle with 2 wheels in the front wheel in the back, that the rider sits astride and steers with the use of handlebars. They go on to say that vehicles where the driver sits in a standard seat with a steering wheel is classified as a 3 wheeled vehicle. This is a separate category from the reverse trike which qualifies as a motorcycle.

So does anyone know if it is possible to register a three wheeled vehicle in Ontario and what regulations you would have to meet? I can't find any info on them anywhere.

I've e-mailed the ministry but being a government thing I don't expect to hear back from them anytime soon. I'm really hoping someone on here can help me out.

Please help!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 17
Location: Trenton, Ontario
Hi everyone I figured I'd post up the information for registering a 3 wheeled vehicle (reverse trike) in Ontario now that I've gotten a response from the MTO:

Quote:
Thank you for your interest in registering a homemade motorcycle. The
following information has been provided for you.

A custom built / homemade vehicle can be a motor vehicle, motorized snow
vehicle, or trailer which is constructed by using:

(a) Major homemade components parts e.g., body, chassis, frame, etc.;
and

(b) Some minor used/new parts obtained from an auto wrecker, dealer or
manufacturer.

According to Section 1.1 in the Ontario Highway Traffic Act, a
motorcycle is defined as a "self-propelled vehicle having a seat or
saddle for the use of the driver and designed to travel on not more than
three wheels in contact with the ground, and includes a motor scooter,
but does not include a motor assisted bicycle". Also under the Ontario
Highway Traffic Act, a motorcycle is included in the definition of a
motor vehicle, which is as follows: "motor vehicle includes an
automobile, motorcycle, motor assisted bicycle unless otherwise
indicated in this Act, and any other vehicle propelled or driven
otherwise than by muscular power, but does not include a street car, or
other motor vehicles running only upon rails, or a motorized snow
vehicle, traction engine, farm tractor, self-propelled implement of
husbandry or road-building machine within the meaning of this Act.

Before a custom built / homemade vehicle can be registered, it must
comply with the minimum equipment standards under Part VI of the Ontario
Highway Traffic Act. You may view these standards at:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK118

Once the standards are met, registration may proceed. Please see the
following for registration requirements for a custom built / homemade
vehicle:

Documents required to register a custom built / homemade vehicle

(a) Sworn Affidavit (A notarized affidavit is a sworn statement made
before a Commissioner of Oaths or a Notary Public. It is needed to
establish vehicle ownership of all parts used in the vehicle's
reconstruction, and to provide a full vehicle description - see next
section for "Contents of an Affidavit")

(b) Application for Registration (forms available at any independently
operated Driver and Vehicle Licence Issuing Office in Ontario). This
can be completed at the time of registration.

(c) Insurance Company's name and policy number

(d) Safety Standards Certificate (S.S.C.)

Contents of an Affidavit (The applicant must provide the following
information on an affidavit)

(a) A statement that vehicle is homemade by person declaring affidavit
(including full legal name, address and signature of person making the
declaration)

(b) A statement that applicant is legal and rightful owner of the
vehicle

(c) A statement explaining how exactly you constructed the body and
where the vehicle parts were obtained [name, address, purchase date]
and, if known, the name of seller

(d) Attach the bill(s) of sale/invoice(s) for all materials/parts used
in the construction of the vehicle

(e) Year vehicle was built

(f) Vehicle identification number (VIN)/serial number or a statement
that a Ministry approved/assigned VIN will be used

I trust this information is helpful.


I read and interpret this and the laws & Regulations in the linked document to mean that a 3 wheeled vehicle can be registered in ontario as long as it meets the regulations.

A couple of things jumped out at me while I was reading but the main one was involving the brakes:

Quote:
"64. (1) Every motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, when driven on a highway shall be equipped with at least two braking systems, each with a separate means of application and effective on at least two wheels,"


The fact that the e-brake system has to actuate on 2 wheels is just a pain in the butt. but at least it's do-able.

However it seems that as long as you are not building a 3 wheeled vehicle that you sit astride you shouldn't have any more difficulty registering a reverse trike than a standard frame Locost.

Let me know if you think my interpretation is off and I'm still barking up the wrong tree.

Thanks and I hope this helps others too! :cheers:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:36 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:05 pm
Posts: 4613
No, two wheel ebrake application is for vehicles other than a motorcycle. See the definition section in the same link for the definition of a motorcycle.

_________________
My reverse commuter trike build log: viewtopic.php?t=11384
Fitting glass and weatherstripping: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6451
Growing various fruit trees, berry bushes, and wine grapes in zone 7b.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 17
Location: Trenton, Ontario
Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
No, two wheel ebrake application is for vehicles other than a motorcycle. See the definition section in the same link for the definition of a motorcycle.


Yes, but because it is not going to be a vehicle that you sit astride and steer with a handlebar it is just a 3 wheel vehicle and falls under the classification of a passenger vehicle. I pulled this off the MTO site (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... q.shtml#a1):

Quote:
1. What is a motor tricycle?

Three-wheeled motorcycles are commonly referred to as “motor tricycles”. A three-wheeled motorcycle may have either two rear wheels or two front wheels, or may be a two-wheeled motorcycle with a sidecar.
The federal Motor Vehicle Safety Act (MVSA) defines a motor tricycle as a motorcycle that:
is designed to travel on three wheels in contact with the ground,
has seating on which all occupants must sit astride,
has no more than four designated seating positions,
has a GVWR of 1,000 kg or less; and
does not have a structure partially or fully enclosing the driver and passenger, other than that part of the vehicle forward of the driver's torso and the seat backrest.


If it meets those requirements it gets classified as a motorcycle and you're screwed because unless you're a recognized manufacturer you can't build and register one in Ontario.

If it has an enclosed structure and steers with a steering wheel then it qualifies as a "3 wheeled vehicle" not a "motor tricycle", and thus has to meet passenger vehicle requirements (e-brake on 2 wheels).

I'd be thrilled to be wrong and only have to brake the rear wheel, BUT if that was the case and it classified as a motorcycle, then It would be impossible to register (same site):

Quote:
12. Can I build my own motor tricycle that has two wheels in the front and one in back?

No. Motor tricycles that have two-front wheels and one-back wheel cannot be registered as a homebuilt for on-road use in Ontario.
A motor tricycle configured with two-front wheels cannot be operated on the highway unless it bears a manufacturer’s compliance label indicating conformity with federal motor tricycle regulations, and it must continue to meet the regulatory standards that applied to it at the time it was manufactured or imported.
We are unaware of any federally compliant kits that convert vehicles to two-front wheel motor tricycle configurations.


I'd rather go through the pain of having to brake more than 1 wheel than having no chance at all of getting the thing registered and road legal.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 17
Location: Trenton, Ontario
Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
No, two wheel ebrake application is for vehicles other than a motorcycle. See the definition section in the same link for the definition of a motorcycle.


Just saw what you were referring to. I missed that the 1st and 2nd read through

“motorcycle” means a self-propelled vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the driver and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground :evil: , and includes a motor scooter, but does not include a motor assisted bicycle; (“motocyclette”)

Crap.

Though the use of "and" not "or" in this case might put it back into the motor vehicle definition?

Any lawyers out there that can help out?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:42 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:05 pm
Posts: 4613
First of all, an faq on a government website is not law. Everybody makes mistakes.

There are Morgans that are 2f1r production vehicles among others. Make a list.

There is an aftermarket for 2f1r kits, such as the jzr pilot and others using the citroen 2cv as a donor if memory serves. Make a list. The Ministry say they do not know, so you can inform then if it comes to that. No need to stir the pot until they say no with no reasonable path towards a solution.

They mention stability yet continue to register 1f2r vehicles. One wheel in front is less stable than two in front when it comes time to turn, apples to apples. They have engineers who can explain this to them.

The definition for the tricycle says it can't even be partially enclosed at the rear to meet the definition, so why would it apply to you?

I see no mention in their personal response, so if you told them it was 2f1r, and expend resources based on their reply, I doubt they will be turning you away but I suggest you keep a file of your official correspondance both ways. Keep a positive attitude when dealing with them and when you get a no without remedy, it may be overturned for good cause if you do your homework, but it takes patience and restraint.

_________________
My reverse commuter trike build log: viewtopic.php?t=11384
Fitting glass and weatherstripping: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6451
Growing various fruit trees, berry bushes, and wine grapes in zone 7b.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 17
Location: Trenton, Ontario
Thanks for the tips!

I've been doing most of what you've suggested, keeping files and records of correspondence as well as other vehicles that are out there that are already on the road. Now, I just gotta sell my race car and free up some garage space to start on the trike!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
POWERED_BY