LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently November 21, 2017, 7:41 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: August 17, 2013, 11:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 7, 2013, 11:30 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Sugar Land, TX
For those who haven't started to build yet (like me), some not so fun links from other websites regarding difficulty getting new builds registered;

New rules effective April 2013
https://ftp.txdmv.gov/pub/txdot-info/vtr/title_manual_book_451.pdf

Problems for Manx enthusiasts;
http://www.texasmanxclub.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3050

Problems for Factory Five Racing enthusiasts;
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10180-No-more-home-made-vehicles-allowed-to-be-registered-in-Texas

I am trying to find a local DMV office here in Sugar Land to go talk to a live person. I will report anything I find out - pretty discouraging at this point as I had planned on a scratch built chassis. Reading the rules it seems like a pre-built frame (Brunton, Caterham, etc. . .) can still be registered but obviously there is a significant bump in cost. Maybe I am mis-interpreting?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 17, 2013, 2:28 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 5556
“Eligibility for Title
Homemade vehicles are not eligible for title or registration. Homemade vehicles are
described as vehicles that were not previously manufactured by a NHTSA approved
manufacturer or a vehicle created by merging two or more vehicles from different vehicle
classes that were never engineered or manufactured to be combined with one another by
the original manufacturers of those vehicles (such as a motorcycle front and the rear of a
Volkswagon Beetle).
Vehicles can be assembled from two vehicles (previously manufactured by NHTSA
approved manufacturers to NHTSA safety standards) when they are from the same
general vehicle class (such as a Ford Sedan front and a Honda sedan rear), but there is no
guarantee that these types of vehicles will be considered ‘road worthy’ and eligible for
registration. If the vehicle can be titled, but is not eligible for registration, the vehicle
could be considered for titling as a off-highway branded vehicle.”

I don't see how this improves safety or prevents theft of equipment. It appears to be aimed at reducing suites brought against the State after an accident where the vehicle was inspected and determined to be "safe", but I don't see it doing that either. It will make a lot of voters very unhappy.

On a side note, the way this reads, swapping anything may cause one to lose their registration.
Someone must be very proud for having wrote this. Even so, the code is law, not this pdf depending on how the code is written, so if the code says specifically that you can...... it may still be a huge battle.

Sooo glad I am not in Texas.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 17, 2013, 3:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: January 30, 2013, 9:19 pm
Posts: 13
Location: DFW
There seem to be a lot of inconsistencies within section 25 of the Texas Motor Vehicle Title Manual (of which an up-to-date copy can be seen on this page of the DMV's website).

The the "Eligibility for Title" subsection's statement about a Homemade vehicle being defined as any vehicle "not previously manufactured by a NHTSA approved manufacturer" would, by the letter of the regulation, seem to state that any kit car (replica or not) is thus ineligible. However we know this isn't the case, since there are sections by which the same document lays out specific ways to go about titling a replica vehicle.

Reading further in sections 25.11 (Body Change), 25.12 (Rebuilt Vehicle), 25.13 (Assembled Vehicle), and 25.14 (Replica), it would seem that not even "traditional" kit cars like an FFR roadster could be registered, as all of these sections seem to require that "a copy of the registration receipt showing that the vehicle was registered at the time the application for title was filed" be presented as evidence along with the title application.

Not that I wasn't expecting it, but I'm basically led to believe that nobody at the TX DMV has any idea how to write requirements, and that registering any kind of kit/assembled/replica vehicle in Texas is going to be an exercise in either walking an inexperienced DMV clerk through the process (in the hope that you can "guide them in the right direction"), or finding one who has done this a few times, and who has perhaps their own rather liberal interpretation of the as-stated requirements.

I can't believe I just moved here from California and started acquiring the parts to build a Locost, only to be hit with even more incompetent government BS.

_________________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 18, 2013, 5:41 pm 
Offline
Toyotaphobe
User avatar

Joined: April 5, 2008, 2:25 am
Posts: 4498
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
And Texas used to be one of the easy ones.

_________________
mobilito ergo sum
I drive therefore I am

I can explain it to you,
but I can't understand it for you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 19, 2013, 4:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 7, 2013, 11:30 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Sugar Land, TX
I found this at the FFR forum;

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10490-Texas-Registration-Completed

Items k) and l) on his list might be a problem for a scratch built chassis;

k)Tracing of frame S/N and form VTR-301
l) Photo of Frame S/N

but the rest of the list seems doable if I buy a frame from a "manufacturer". Just to ask the stupid question is there any reason not to buy a set of dies and stamp S/N WWB000001? I have read the 504 portion of the statuory law and I am not sure it squares with how the Texas DMV has interpreted it. Thoughts?

Looking at the bigger picture, I was going to give myself a three to four year window to build a car. If regulations tend toward getting worse with time, what is the appropriate strategy for planning out that time frame?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 19, 2013, 5:01 pm 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 5747
Location: SoCal
357 wrote:
... I can't believe I just moved here from California and started acquiring the parts to build a Locost, only to be hit with even more incompetent government BS.

Yeah everyone bitches about CA, but when it comes to custom cars, CA is one of the easiest.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 19, 2013, 5:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: July 4, 2006, 5:40 pm
Posts: 1858
Location: Novato, CA
There are plenty of incompetent DMV workers in CA, too. At my local DMV, the clerk had never heard of SB100, and the person in charge of the whole office knew only enough to say, "we only do that in January." I tried walking them through the process as they read through their regs online, but it was hopeless, so I went to another office.

It wasn't a lot better there. The third clerk I talked to knew a little, but after hearing that my engine was from a 1972 car, insisted I didn't need a SPCNS certificate of sequence because "those are for people trying to register old cars with new engines." Not looking forward to going back there after my CHP inspection.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 19, 2013, 6:38 pm 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 5747
Location: SoCal
Incompetence is human, so that's a constant no matter where. The point is that at least in CA, there are rules to allow it. Apparently in TX there are not.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 20, 2013, 10:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 7, 2013, 11:30 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Okay, so following up on the FFR poster story I found this document after searching for RTB (RTB 2012 004 Attachment1);

http://www.txdmv.gov/publications-tac/doc_download/1362-rtb-2012-004-attachment1

Reading through the FAQ, you get this;

"1. What is the statutory definition of a custom vehicle or street rod?
In Texas Transportation Code, Sec. 504.501:
Custom Vehicle is defined as a vehicle at least 25 years old and of a model year after 1948; or manufactured to resemble a vehicle that is at least 25 years old and of a model year after 1948; and that has been altered from the manufacturer’s original design or has a body constructed from materials not original to the vehicle.
Street Rod is defined as a vehicle that was manufactured before 1949; or after 1948 to resemble a vehicle manufactured before 1949; and that has been altered from the manufacturer’s original design, or has a body constructed from materials not original to the vehicle."

and this;

"4. What is an acceptable ownership document for the major component part that contains the VIN or serial number the vehicle will be titled by (body for passenger vehicle and frame for truck)?
• Original or duplicate Certificate of Title
• Manufacturers Certificate of Origin
• Vehicle Verification or Registration Receipt and Bill of Sale if from a non-title state
• Court Order
• Tax Assessor-Collector Hearing

Note: If there is not a VIN or serial number on the component part the vehicle will be titled by, a Court Order or Tax Assessor-Collector Hearing must be obtained to establish ownership.

5. What is an acceptable ownership document for the major component parts that the vehicle will not be titled by?
• Any of the documents acceptable for the major component part that contains the VIN or serial number the vehicle will be titled by
• Bill of Sale
• Invoice
If the frame or body were homemade by the applicant, form VTR-61, Rebuilt Vehicle Statement, that includes a detailed description of how the body or frame was constructed and includes receipts and/or invoices of the materials and various parts obtained."

So, a Locost pretty clearly meets the statutory definition of a Custom Vehicle (Lotus 7's were last made in 1972, right?) and the the Texas DMV's own FAQ anticipates homemade chassis, this looks like a clear path to getting on the road. What am I missing??


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 20, 2013, 2:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: January 30, 2013, 9:19 pm
Posts: 13
Location: DFW
That's pretty much the conclusion I came to as well; that Custom Vehicle was probably the best way to try and go about it. I get more and more frustrated reading the regs every time. :P I keep thinking "Good lord; just put this in a flow chart and quit causing everybody so many headaches!"

I wonder what the requirements would be as far as an entity issuing a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin. Like was said earlier; what's to stop an individual serializing a custom-built chassis? At the very least, one could argue that doing so might make it easier to trace for insurance/theft recovery purposes.

_________________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 20, 2013, 10:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 7, 2013, 11:30 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Sugar Land, TX
@357

Quote:
I wonder what the requirements would be as far as an entity issuing a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin. Like was said earlier; what's to stop an individual serializing a custom-built chassis? At the very least, one could argue that doing so might make it easier to trace for insurance/theft recovery purposes.


That has been bugging me as well - what makes Brunton, Caterham, and Kinetic Vehicles so special? (well, admittedly Kinetic Vehicles runs an awesome website so kudos to them). I would hazard they are not NHTSA certified or specially licensed in Texas so why is the Texas DMV so hung up on "pre-fabricated"?

Glad to see someone is thinking along the same lines on navigating the system, and yes I totally agree with you - any situation where Texas is more heavily regulated than California is seriously fracked.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 21, 2013, 9:25 am 
Offline

Joined: January 30, 2013, 9:19 pm
Posts: 13
Location: DFW
wigwambam wrote:

That has been bugging me as well - what makes Brunton, Caterham, and Kinetic Vehicles so special? (well, admittedly Kinetic Vehicles runs an awesome website so kudos to them). I would hazard they are not NHTSA certified or specially licensed in Texas so why is the Texas DMV so hung up on "pre-fabricated"?


Looking into it a bit more, I would imagine that to issue a Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin, one might need to be a state-licensed vehicle manufacturer (which doesn't have anything to do with NHTSA, as it turns out--I don't think the federal government does anything as far as manufacturer licensing).
On the other hand, a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin looks to be a much more nebulous item, so that might be one way to go.

A couple links for reference (these guys look like they have the ability to print MCOs):
http://www.motorcycle-manufacturer-license.org/MCOs-MSOs-information.htm
http://www.motorcycle-manufacturer-license.org/MCO-MSO-replacement-duplicates.htm

There's at least one car local to DFW that I think might be going through this process in relatively short order, so with any luck the community can compile information/advice/pitfalls here, in an attempt to provide a guide for others here in TX.

_________________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 21, 2013, 10:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: July 17, 2008, 9:11 am
Posts: 4360
Location: West Chicago,IL
I too looked into it just for fun. To become a licensed vehicle manufacturer in the great state of Texas takes a $1800 (per year?) license application. I couldn't find anything about vehicle part or body manufacturers.

And yes, you can register nationally as a vehicle manufacturer and apply your registered 17 digit Vin number. This gets you by the state "assembled vehicle" mumbo jumbo. I think then you have to build to current vehicle requirements. airbags, crash tests, liability insurance, warranty statements etc.

Neither one of these are very cost advantageous for a 1-up or mybe even a 100-up builder. And the red tape must be enormous!

In order to issue a MSO (MCO) you mut be registered/licensed somewhere. That takes more money and red tape than building a "replica" or "custom vehicle"

_________________
Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

My RX7 powered Locost is now for sale http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=18460

or visit my Cushman Truckster resurrection log: over HERE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 21, 2013, 11:15 am 
Offline

Joined: January 30, 2013, 9:19 pm
Posts: 13
Location: DFW
rx7locost wrote:

In order to issue a MSO (MCO) you mut be registered/licensed somewhere. That takes more money and red tape than building a "replica" or "custom vehicle"


Are the regulations regarding MSO's and MCO's laid out somewhere? From what I'm reading they seem to be two different things, although I'm also under the impression that it is almost never the case that both will be issued for a particular vehicle.

_________________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 21, 2013, 9:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: July 17, 2008, 9:11 am
Posts: 4360
Location: West Chicago,IL
I am no expert on this. From what I read an MCO is the same as a MSO and are basically interchangable. If you found different, then I am wrong.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 6542,d.aWM you'll find the application form for Texas. In that, you have to provide an example of your MSO/MCO form..

Instrucrtions for filling out that form are: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftxdmv.gov%2Fpublications-carriers%2Fdoc_download%2F1212-lp201-instructions-for-completing-form-lf201&ei=RWQVUqTABYHnqgGO8IC4Cg&usg=AFQjCNHyJJdYL1PeMvPCnNAcQD7kvVH1vw&sig2=cZiuijBxJwM2t3rZRzdoaA&bvm=bv.51156542,d.aWM


That is about all I can say on this.

_________________
Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

My RX7 powered Locost is now for sale http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=18460

or visit my Cushman Truckster resurrection log: over HERE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
POWERED_BY