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 Post subject: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 29, 2009, 2:39 pm 
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Went into the MTO last Monday, argh. They want to register my car as "Home Built" which is a PITA. Saying because I didn't buy a kit that makes it NOT a kit. However everything I've read disagrees with that assertion, suggesting that since it was styled to look like an existing car, and book plans were used, it is therefore a kit. Unfortunately I've got a better chance fighting a tank with a pea shooter than fighting the MTO on such things.

Anyone have any suggestions?

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 29, 2009, 3:10 pm 
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According to this site (which is not the Ministry of Transportation) http://www.canadianrodder.com/features/ ... tering.htm, a vehicle which has been fabricated completely by the owner is not eligible for anything but homebuilt status.

In the U.S.A., typically, a person is required to get a business license only if they sell more than a specific number of items.

The first person could fabricate everything meeting the definition of a kitcar and sell it to the second person. The second person can then assembly the kitcar and apply for registration and title since the second person did not fabricate everything.

I doubt the Ministry of the Environment deliberately left home builts out of the kitcar loop.

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 29, 2009, 3:15 pm 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
According to this site (which is not the Ministry of Transportation) http://www.canadianrodder.com/features/ ... tering.htm, a vehicle which has been fabricated completely by the owner is not eligible for anything but homebuilt status.

In the U.S.A., typically, a person is required to get a business license only if they sell more than a specific number of items.

The first person could fabricate everything meeting the definition of a kitcar and sell it to the second person. The second person can then assembly the kitcar and apply for registration and title since the second person did not fabricate everything.

I doubt the Ministry of the Environment deliberately left home builts out of the kitcar loop.


Yes, I'm familar with that site. That same site goes on to say:

The only motor vehicles which should be registered as "homemade" by MTO, are motor vehicles where both the body and the chassis/frame have been completely constructed by the owner from scratch, without the benefit of a kit or a guide for assembly of the parts, or the purchase of a specialty frame or kit body, or a guide to construct the kit body and/or frame.

However since this site isn't the MTO it doesn't convince the MTO of anything.

Can anyone here that has registered a 7 with MTO tell me what they had to prove it was a "kit" a friend helped me build this, so I can always get a piece of paper from him saying it is a "kit" could I not?

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 29, 2009, 4:31 pm 
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Here is the official definition:

Environmental Protection Act
Loi sur la protection de l'environnement

ONTARIO REGULATION 361/98

MOTOR VEHICLES

"kit car" means a motor vehicle that has been constructed using a new and complete body of a motor vehicle that is supplied without a motor, chassis or drive train;


Suggest you read:

Highway Traffic Act
Code de la route

R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 628

VEHICLE PERMITS

http://www.search.e-laws.gov.on.ca/en/i ... s&context=

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 29, 2009, 4:36 pm 
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Thanks, I read that too. There isn't much else other than that line in the environment protection act. I've been Googling non-stop. I think my best plan is to for me to buy the body/chassis off my friend and make him the "kit builder" - which is essence he was to a large degree. So I'm now inquiring as to what it takes to become an "official" kit builder in Ontario, I suspect the answer is nothing. A business should be able to sell a empty chassis.

Paul


Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Here is the official definition:

Environmental Protection Act
Loi sur la protection de l'environnement

ONTARIO REGULATION 361/98

MOTOR VEHICLES

"kit car" means a motor vehicle that has been constructed using a new and complete body of a motor vehicle that is supplied without a motor, chassis or drive train;


Suggest you read:

Highway Traffic Act
Code de la route

R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 628

VEHICLE PERMITS

http://www.search.e-laws.gov.on.ca/en/i ... s&context=

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 29, 2009, 5:57 pm 
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Location: Sunny-Okanagan, Canada, eh?!
Unless they require a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (MSO) as they do here in BC. I'm not sure what an MSO needs to be, or if you have to be somehow registered to distribute one.

G

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 29, 2009, 6:07 pm 
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SkinnyG wrote:
Unless they require a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (MSO) as they do here in BC. I'm not sure what an MSO needs to be, or if you have to be somehow registered to distribute one.

G


Agreed, that's what I'm going to find out. From the examples they've shown me at the MTO, this shouldn't be a big deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 29, 2009, 7:30 pm 
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I think all the confusion stems from the stu... legislated bilingual requirements. In other words, it doesn't translate into common sense :wink:

Mikey Bynum


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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 29, 2009, 9:33 pm 
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Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada
I went through this whole ordeal at the beginning of the year, with the Ontario MTO. I tried everything to get my car classified as a kit car, because I didn't want it to be classified as anything else. However, when I looked into it more, I realized how much easier it was to get it on the road as a homemade car. First of all, when you register it as a homemade car, you only need a regular safety and e-test to get your plates. Kit cars require a structural inspection (including checks of all the proper safety stuff), a safety, the weight of the car, and an appraisal -and thats just for the MTO. When it comes to insurance, I talked to my broker, and he gave me some very useful information. Since every driver in Ontario requires insurance, it must be possible for any licensed driver to get insurance for any licensed vehicle. Since most insurance company's don't insure "high risk" vehicles or drivers, a company called the Facility Association was created by the government. From my understanding, you can only go through a broker to get insurance from them. Anyways, this company will insure Homemade cars and Kit cars. There is no difference for cost between them because they are put under the same category. The only things that determine how much your premium will be, will be your driving record, and the appraised value of the vehicle. (You must have an appraisal done for your insurance, regardless of whether or not its a homemade car or kit car).


So, when it came time to register my Locost, I registered it as a homemade car. It just made everything easier to do it that way. The only downside to it that I can see is that you'll need to get into the e-test program. You need an e-test this year, then in 5 years, then every 2 years after. The insurance isn't too bad either. Its about 15% more per month than my $1000 Geo Metro is to insure.


If you have any questions about I did, or you need something clarified, just let me know.


Good Luck!!

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 30, 2009, 12:15 am 
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Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
maxlessca wrote:
I went through this whole ordeal at the beginning of the year, with the Ontario MTO. I tried everything to get my car classified as a kit car, because I didn't want it to be classified as anything else. However, when I looked into it more, I realized how much easier it was to get it on the road as a homemade car.


Thanks for the tips, and I am still considering the home built status. As you said, it's easy. I'm familar with the facility association, I have a decent broker that's already looked into all that for me.

As for Drive Clean, how do they test the engine in my car which is a '94? Do they base it on emissions for the 94 engine? If I thought that adding 2 cats to my engine would let it pass I would do this for sure. I'm just not convinced that will be enough.

Paul

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 30, 2009, 7:06 am 
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I looked at many documents. I remember reading in one of them that the year of manufacture will be the year model of the engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: July 1, 2009, 6:49 pm 
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Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada
paulmon wrote:
As for Drive Clean, how do they test the engine in my car which is a '94? Do they base it on emissions for the 94 engine?


To be honest, each drive clean place I went to thought about it differently. When I did my e-test, I went into 3 different places before someone was actually able to do a test for me. I actually went into the shop with them, and watched them punch everything into the computer.

I don't know if you have ever seen a drive clean being done, but they have to answer a bunch of questions to the computer to be able to do the test. Some computers are different than others (Some do the test different than others), but they all ask questions like: VIN, Make, #Cylinders, Weight, Model, Odometer reading, Engine Size, Year, Type of Vehicle (Coupe, Sedan, SUV, Pickup, Hot Rod etc). The VIN has to be the same as your assigned VIN, otherwise it wont register with the ministry. I believe the other questions aren't as important. Some drive clean places will look at your car and say its a 2009, others look at the age of the engine and say its a 94. Some fill in the type of vehicle as "Hot Rod", others fill it in as coupe. For the model, some will put HOM, others will put it in as "Mustang" or "Camero" or whatever the engine is out of. Some will put the odometer reading at 0, because its a new car, others may ask how many Km's are on the engine.

For my test, these is what my e-test sheet says:
Year: 2009
VIN: HOM02C09.....
GVWR (kg): 1500 (I told them 1500lbs, but I guess they didn't convert it)
Make: HOM
Engine Size: 5.0L
ETW(kg): 1814
Model: HOM
#cyl: 8
Inpection type: I (Don't know what that means)


Test Results:
...................Limit.................Result:
HC................242....................17
CO...............1.92....................0
NO...............2520...................379



paulmon wrote:
If I thought that adding 2 cats to my engine would let it pass I would do this for sure. I'm just not convinced that will be enough.

Paul


I really, REALLY thought my car was going to fail the emissions. I had no EGR, the engine was 20 years old, and it had 260,000kms on it. But, it ended up doing really well. I had cats, a charcoal canister and the engine was very warm for the test. Regardless, I don't think the emissions guys will pass you without cats. Even though it'll take some time to remake your exhaust, you should have them on.

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 2, 2011, 3:19 pm 
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Hi Paulmon

Did you ever get you car licensed? I just got back from the license office and they told me it was a home built. I ditched my emmisions stuff because none of it worked. And does a home built need a structural inspection?

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 2, 2011, 3:29 pm 
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locost_adam wrote:
Hi Paulmon

Did you ever get you car licensed? I just got back from the license office and they told me it was a home built. I ditched my emmisions stuff because none of it worked. And does a home built need a structural inspection?

Cheers


Yes. Wording is everything and mood of the MTO person is everything too. It's not licensed yet, have to pass the safety inspection, but I did get it registered as a kit.

Can you tell me a bit about your build? What kit did you use? Did you built it yourself? is it a 7? Did you use a book? Where did you get the "chassis" if you built it yourself your chassis is where you bought the metal. This was key for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Ontario MTO Troubles
PostPosted: June 2, 2011, 11:35 pm 
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I don't know if its different out here on the West Coast but according to the members of the Hot Rod Club that I belong to, I have to save all the receipts for all the components (to make sure the Government gets their tax) get a safety inspection, take everything to our Motor Vehicle Dept. get a Registration and insure it. Apparently no different than building a fiberglass 32 Ford coupe. By the way out here ists still registered as a 2011 ubuilt.


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