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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: June 25, 2015, 3:04 pm 
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Posts: 88
xcarguy wrote:
ChanoquinII wrote:
. . . . . my mountings are strong enough . . . . but i am quite sure they will collapse and maybe get destroyed on an impact.
Also my seat bottom -a Dodge Ram seat modified that has a lattice of 1" X 1/8" Steel Flat Bar which no doubt will gain me a couple of inchces of deformation space.

I may post pictures when I have the chance.

AA


AA, please post photos if you can. Thanks.


Got pics, but can´t resize,
I did once and posted tha I could as chanoquin, but different computer now and don´t know.
Pics are 1.2 megs more or less, if you pm your email I can send them.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: June 25, 2015, 3:22 pm 
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Here I come....

Done...

There are four spacers between seat and runners.
There may be more ways to make collapsible spacers ala steering column, but this was triggered by design/fabrication constraints.

There are also 4 wooden spacers between runner and Floor Pan, these were made to gain a little tilt on the seat to allow the use of the runner lever.

And last, the lattice was suggested by my upholsterer.
I haven´t weighed the seats and don´t have any clue ho much they´ll end up being, but as Im building a big car with a Big engine, overweight ond/over engineering does not take away my sleep.


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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: June 25, 2015, 3:29 pm 
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This is akin to what I've seen.

There was a long documentary on Nova or Discover Channel or something?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtLzn0A5h6w

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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: June 25, 2015, 3:55 pm 
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ChanoquinII wrote:
I am also a pilot, and would point that unless you enter a stall close to the ground with no altitude to recover, forward speed is higher than vertical speed even on a crash landing.
True BUT as the old joke goes, it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop. Aircraft accidents typically occur with relatively unobstructed forward motion...relative to the ground, that is, which obstructs downward motion. The ground isn't going to give much, but if you crash on a runway or an open field, you may continue skidding for quite some distance. If you're going 100 mph forward and it takes 100 feet to stop, that's a minor impact compared to 10 mph down and 2 inches to stop. Unless there's a fire, or the plane hits something solid going forward, the vertical deceleration is still the component that kills you.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: June 25, 2015, 4:04 pm 
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geek49203 wrote:
. . . . the impact graph (g's over time) isn't a smooth bell curve / line. Rather, there is usually an "impact spike" in the start of the event that last a few mini micro small bit nano-seconds. The trick, they told me, was to take all of that energy under that spike (which all must be dissipated) and spread it around so that there was no line north of a danger zone . . . . isnt that what the mystical magical wonderful foam we've been talking about would do?


As for the impact (the initial shock of the impact), would it be safe to say that the objective is to also slow down the impact as well (using the foam to absorb the onset of the shock)? Or is this one in the same?


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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: June 25, 2015, 6:47 pm 
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xcarguy wrote:
As for the impact (the initial shock of the impact), would it be safe to say that the objective is to also slow down the impact as well (using the foam to absorb the onset of the shock)? Or is this one in the same?


Yes. The engineers told me they wanted to turn a narrow tall spike on the graph (where the X axis is time and Y axis are G's) into a lower spike. But as I barely recall calculus and physics, the area under the line must go somewhere, so yeah, the base gets wider, which means spread over more time.

Another option would be to take the impact and spread it over a wider area I guess. If you had a bruised part of your butt we might say that we could spread the impact so your entire butt took the blow. I would assume that this is why we have 4" belts instead of 3" or 2" (well, that, and the stretching)? But I don't see how we would broaden the impact area, since the parts being stressed are your vertebrae.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: July 2, 2015, 11:37 am 
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Always Moore!
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Designing car seats like aircraft seats isn't a good idea. Aircraft seatbelts attach to the seat so you stay attached to the seat. Cars have the belts go to the chassis. If the seat collapses to absorb energy, the belts will lose tension and your injuries will end up significantly worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: July 3, 2015, 1:03 pm 
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This designing seating and seatbelts for safety is a very tricky business. Even subtle changes in things like the angle of shoulder straps leaving the driver's shoulders to their anchor point can influence injuries significantly. There is a lot of material on designing auto seats for comfort, but not for safety in the sense we've been talking about it. At least, I've never found much.

If anyone finds something by an authoritative organization (FIA, NASCAR, Indy Cars, etc.) or specialty company, please do let others know about it.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: July 3, 2015, 5:54 pm 
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Lonnie-S wrote:
If anyone finds something by an authoritative organization (FIA, NASCAR, Indy Cars, etc.) or specialty company, please do let others know about it.

Cheers,


Agreed on it being a very tricky business, and of course, a tradeoff between mitigation of one risk at the expense of another.

What exactly would you like me to ask IndyCar if/when I get the chance?

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: July 3, 2015, 6:28 pm 
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What I'd be looking for, Tim, really isn't one question. It would be more like their recommendations for various aspects of seating, seat belts, crash resistant materials an so on. Things like seating position, width, angle and location of seat belts and more technical things such as that. It would be more like a specification or design guidelines that just a question or two.

Cheers,

Lonnie

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: July 3, 2015, 8:44 pm 
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a.moore wrote:
Aircraft seatbelts attach to the seat so you stay attached to the seat. Cars have the belts go to the chassis.


Not always. In my Cessna 172P the belts attach to the airframe not the seats. I believe that most General Aviation aircraft are the same. The seat belts in a commercial airliner attach to the seats, probably to make changing seats easier and because the seat frames are beefy enough to take the forces.

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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: July 4, 2015, 2:22 pm 
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Always Moore!
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Are the seat frames in your Cessna designed to collapse to absorb energy?

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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: July 4, 2015, 5:31 pm 
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It’s good to see positive discussion continuing on in this thread.

A bit more info regarding aircraft seating vs. car seating.

Of the various aircraft I have flown over the years, those that were of the transport aircraft category always had their restraint systems attached to the seats; a requirement for Part 25 certification. With regards to non-transport category aircraft (such as a Cessna 172), seat belt placement, though regulated, may be much less restrictive with respect to anchor locations, therefore, providing the manufacturer with greater leeway in seat belt design and placement; this, I would have to research to be sure of. However, with respect to Part 25 certification requirements, review of Advisory Circular 25.562-1B sheds some light on seat belt placement. In AC No: 25.562-1B, Dynamic Evaluation of Seat Restraint Systems and Occupant Protection on Transport Airplanes, APPENDIX 3. SEAT FAMILY DEFINITION, 11. Seatbelts and Anchors, a. Family of seat principles, it states “. . . . The seat belt typically consists of a latching mechanism, a belt anchor (which connects the belt to the seat) and webbing (which links the latch mechanism with the belt anchors). “ Subsection (3) further states “. . . . The seat belt anchor provides the load path between the belt anchor (part of the belt assembly) and the seat structure . . . . The seat belt anchor at similar locations within the seat assemblies must . . . . employ similar methods of attachment.” All of which alludes to the seat belt being fastened to the seat structure as a must for certification.

Mounting restraints to the seat structures of our cars should never be considered. In the event of a seat mount failure during and accident, rollover protection alone would be completely compromised. In transport aircraft category design and certification, attaching the restraints to the seat structure is predicated on experiencing high G loads during as an aircraft’s initial contact with the ground during a crash situation; certain assumed criteria regarding aircraft attitude and g-load at the time of impact applies here and can be researched in the link below for AC No: 25.562-1B, Dynamic Evaluation of Seat Restraint Systems and Occupant Protection on Transport Airplanes. Aircraft seat mounting structures (as well as some aircraft flooring) are designed to absorb high g-loads during such an occurrence while the restraints keep the occupants firmly (hopefully) in place. With seat mounts and some floor structures designed to fail in a crash situation, having the seat belts attached to the seat is the most viable option for crash survivability.

Immediately, interested parties such as myself who are seeking a safer seating solution in the event of a vertical impact, are up against two seat mounting challenges with the Lotus 7 design. First, and to reiterate what we all already know, is the seating position itself in these cars. The cockpit design (60 plus year old design) demands that the seats be located in a more upright position with approximately 15 degrees of incline. While this position, when augmented with properly installed and adequately utilized safety gear, is acceptable for an impact in a horizontal plane, it doesn't do anything to resolve the possibility of experiencing a vertical drop during an accident, such as that which happened to me. Being bound by inherent design demands that I (we?) must work with/around the seating position which may very well mean compromise to some extent as long as it lay within the acceptable limits of mitigated risk, be it personal or otherwise. In other words, what am I doing/what can I do/what risk am I willing to accept to lessening the chance of a repeat occurrence or a repeat injury? Obviously, decreasing the chance of a repeat occurrence is a whole other discussion. Decreasing the chance of a repeat injury has personally led me to the question of seating, the focus of my post.
The second challenge is seat mounting rigidity; so what's the compromise/tradeoff? When a driver straps his or herself into the seat, they want the harness cinched down tight (the objective, clearly, is to stay securely put in the event of a crash); I’m referring to a high performance driving environment when I say this. If we attempted to create a collapsible mounting structure, it may end up compromising the restraint’s ability to successfully keep us in place. So, we don’t want to necessarily decrease (at least not to the point it becomes detrimental) seat mounting rigidity, or at the very least, I don’t. We want (we need) to stay put. So, the dilemma is to come up with something that is somewhat crashworthy in both a horizontal and vertical plane. Right now, for me personally, it's the foam I mentioned; my samples arrived last week. Having said that, during the rebuilding of my car, seat mounting will be given the highest consideration. Here’s a thought; when I had my accident, my spine compressed a full one inch when the rear of the car impacted the ground…..take a guess at what happened to the overall tension of my shoulder restraints. Granted, if you place impact absorbing foam in your seat, you will a) raise your seating position by some degree, depending on what material you use and its overall thickness. Personally, I’m not out to break any records and am not the least bit concerned about moving my CG to a location that’s not even going to be easily measurable by any means, and I’m sure not going to build a car that places my seating position near vertical and akin to that of a formula driver. b) You will have to contend with the foam’s initial compressibility which is about 50% per the info I received from Janice at seatfoam. Granted, once you take a seat, sufficient time will have to elapse to allow the cushion to reach an equilibrium position (50% compression) in order to apply a true 1-g preload once strapped in. And the time it takes to reach this equilibrium will vary by weight, build (the size of your bum), temp, seat bottom design and foam type, thickness and layer preference.

In February, if I’d had two inches of the Confor Foam, one inch of medium and one inch of firm (my future preference at the moment), it would (after reaching equilibrium) have given me a full one inch of impact protection in the vertical plane. With hindsight being the proverbial 20-20, I’d much rather have had one inch of impact absorbing foam soaking up the G-loads (and a possibly slightly loosened lap belt that still kept me in the seat) than the one inch loss in vertebrae height I now have to live with for the rest of my life. Having had foam in my seat that day may have very well meant the difference in my walking out of the ER after a checkup vs. a 14 day hospital stint followed by what is now my 18th week of recovery; still on meds and still in the brace.

For those who would care to research aircraft seating, I’ve provided links below. The links for the FAR’s are repetitive with the Cornell links being an easier read than the .gov links….but just in case you prefer it from the horse’s mouth.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/medi ... 562-1b.pdf

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/25.785
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2015-t ... 25-785.pdf

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/25.561
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2015-t ... 25-561.pdf

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/25.562
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2015-t ... 25-562.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: July 4, 2015, 6:11 pm 
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xcarguy wrote:
...In February, if I’d had two inches of the Confor Foam, one inch of medium and one inch of firm (my future preference at the moment), it would (after reaching equilibrium) have given me a full one inch of impact protection in the vertical plane...

That's true if the shoulder harnesses are not tightened down. However, after coming to equilibrium at 1", the shoulder harnesses would likely be cinched down again, compressing the foam another 1/2" at least. While it's still better than nothing, it's getting marginal.

I haven't seen anything in this thread about where the shoulder harnesses were attached to the chassis. I've read that if they're too low, a forward impact applies a downward force on the spine even without any vertical drop. Unfortunately, even manufacturer instructions vary widely about what's "right"... 0-10 deg, 0-20 deg, 0-45 deg, etc. Here's just a few:

Image

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Stalker in accident
PostPosted: July 4, 2015, 6:46 pm 
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The tech guy in our SCCA group won't pass anything that's more than 10 degrees below your shoulder.

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