LocostUSA.com

Hi Rick, you win! I would never have guessed that.

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Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.

Thanks for the warm welcome from Team Slotus. I'll take the leave in the middle of the night payment option...


I have to admit I'm a fairly diehard chevy/gm guy . It's an architecture I'm very familiar with, and the easy power and great stock heads are too good for me to pass up. I know, 500hp is completely not needed, but I like the idea of matching a bugatti in power/weight . Are there aluminum ford small blocks in junk yards? How does the iron ford block compare to the aluminum LS3?

Marcus,

96 and newer explorer 5.0L has the fuel return at the end of the rail, buried just forward of the fuel pressure regulator.
The rail forms a "C" shape.

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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12

Hi MV8, it seems the last year of two of Explorer had a fuel pump/regulator in the gas tank. I have a normal fuel injection pump and will probably need to buy a standalone regulator. I could also just swap to a fuel rail that has a regulator, but eventually I need different fuel rails to go with a single plane intake manifold I want to tuse int he actual car. For now I just need a motor that will idle to debug my ECU.

Kyle you can move the tubes or stretch the Car9 chassis in various ways, but I think it makes more sense to move the tubes on a header than tubes on the chassis. On the one hand maybe it will affect your power a small amount, but at this point you are basically in the too much power area so it doesn't matter. On the other hand you can move tubes on the chassis and maybe compromise that instead of the power, that makes less sense I think.

The modern style of headers seems to be fairly short primaries that are then put into a Y and then those tubes go into another Y. I think they pair different on the two sides due to firing order. Doing this would probably help your routing. I think you see this in NASCAR now. I think what SeattleTom is doing is sensible or you can build your own headers.

The Ford 302 was originally only 3.5 litres, or 220 CID I think. That's why the block is so small. Aluminum parts are after market. It makes sense to put a set of aluminum heads on it and that saves you 50 lbs., you can also get blocks. The Ford block is between 50-75 lbs. lighter than the Chevy iron blocks.

I caution you on the power though. Once you build it so it can burn rubber at 100 MPH, well your not going to notice it's happening until too late. Third time out in a car like the one in my avatar I got it backwards at 110. That was with 106 HP in a 1100 lb. car. Nothing about this improved my rep at the track or was fun for me at the time.

At these power levels and with a Lalo body you are talking well over 200 MPH. That doesn't make a lot of sense really, long before it goes airborne you would be driving a 1700 lb. car with only half it's weight on the wheels at very high speed.

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Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.

Probably the thing to do, as the returnless systems used something on the order of 65 psi to prevent percolation in the rail.



And tough to get with a 5.0L without forced induction. But I've driven a bunch of breathed on Fox bodies around the 350 HP mark, and can't imagine a Locost in that power range...

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Rick in Las Vegas (but it's a dry heat...)

Current projects:
http://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863

http://fordsix.com//viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244

Heehee... I imagined it, built it, and I'm still trying to learn to drive the damned thing! Actually, the Slotus probably came in somewhat under 350hp (Maybe 315 - 325?), and weighed 2100 with my fat arse in it. Light bends around the cockpit when you stand on it. I start it in 2nd because 1st creates smoke and noise but not much motion. I went from 10" wide slicks in the back to 14s and still get wheelspin any time I want it. Acceleration is brutal... I love it...

But, to fix all that, I'm building a 331 stroker motor now. Some AFR heads are in the future, as is a hotter cam.
Hide and watch, chillrens, hide and watch... Heehee...


JDK

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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom

Speaking of engines, it's interesting that you're talking about increasing the stroke on the 5.0 Ford. I was just doing some reading on the destroking an LS2/LS3 to push peak torque up rpm wise and make a higher rpm more possible. One article mentioned a destroker going into a full race Corvette in the mid 2000 pound range, and that it was helpful to reduce low end torque, because we're at a point with weight where it's hurting more than its helping.

The Ford 5.0 saves the work of destroking, but the LS heads still seem like they would make up for that in terms of cheap flow capacity. Thoughts?

Destroking the LSx for higher rpm is an interesting solution, but some attention need$ to be paid to the valve train. A less expensive approach would be to use a higher rear-end ratio (lower numerically) along with judicious use of the right foot.

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Cheers, Tom

My Car9 build: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613
"It's the construction of the car-the sheer lunacy and joy of making diverse parts come together and work as one-that counts."
Ultima Spyder, Northstar 4.0, Porsche G50/52

Honestly, I've always been a Ford guy, for not any real good reasons. Always liked Mustangs, revered Carroll Shelby and the Cobras, the Ford GT was winning LeMans when I was an impressionable youth and then there was the Ford Cosworth DFV...

That said, the LS architecture is just brilliant design. They're "cheap horsepower" for sure, and there's enough aftermarket support to do pretty much any mod you can think of.

That said, destroking one seems like a lot of work to go backwards... IMHO... I'd have to agree with SeattleTom on changing axle ratios and takin' some lead outta your boots!


JD "Whadda I Know?" Kemp

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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom

Increasing displacement is generally the cheapest and most reliable way to go to get more power. As you noticed though it can be argued the equation is a little different for a really light car. The aftermarket aluminum heads for the Ford are at least as good as the LS parts and in fact some are very similar I think. You win twice with these because you also get 50 lbs. off the motor.

The Ford started life at only 221 inches, I think, so it lands up being roughly a couple of inches narrower and shorter than the LS engines. This small size is what makes it a good choice. You can see that SeattleTom has managed to get his LS into the car just fine though. Both of these choices will make plenty of power for any realistic use.

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Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.

The newest SketchUp drawings on the Google site appear to be from September, 2014. Are those the most up-to-date? I just want to make sure I'm looking at the most current design...
https://sites.google.com/site/car9buildit/home/downloads

Thanks,
Mike

BUMP.

Are these the most up-to-date?

Are there any running Car9s out there?

I have a finished Locost, with all the cymtriks mods. A friend has the regular book build, and, while there are differences in build, I can tell the slightly different handling which may be due to frame stiffness (there are so many differences - shocks, springs, engine, etc, so maybe it's just a placebo effect since I know I put in all the cymtriks mods). Plus, we both have full roll cages.

Ever the tinkerer, it's really only slightly more than trivial for me to "start over" and build a new chassis (based on Car9), and transplant everything I have in my current Locost to the new Car9 based space frame. As per cymtriks mods (without the roll cage), the cymtriks modded Locost is like 2,500+ deg/ft lbs (or whatever measurement it was), and this Car9, as per my reading, is in the 9,000-11,000 range? I'd really like to make one just to see the difference.

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Premier Сasual Dating

Hi Alfameister, there are several Car9 builds in progress including a new one just getting started. Seattle Tom's build is the furthest along and he has done a great job with his build log, it has a lot of information for a Car9 builder. Here's the latest picture from his log and you can see he is working on the sheet metal for the scuttle right now. His log is here: http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613&start=945



The drawings on the web site are reasonably up to date. Since then I have been maintaining individual SketchUp files for some of the builders. Right now that includes SeattleTom, Briggs ( a square tube build ) and myself. We have another square tube build starting now. I will be updating the website probably this week to help my new builders.

You can build the frame but we also have FEA models for both the Car9 and Locost frames on this site. Learning these tools is a decent effort but you can really compare how the frames behave to different forces that way.

There are several reasons the Car9 chassis is so much stiffer than the Locost. It includes the roll cage with it's larger tubing, the frame is taller and it includes more triangulation in a few key areas. The basic chassis is 2-3 times stiffer and it's arranged in a way that a simple radius rod can be added from the middle of the dash across the passenger seat to the outside rail. This little tube weighs 2-3 pounds but adds perhaps %50 to the cars stiffness because it creates a well triangulated cockpit. I thought it was a neat little trick, it only works if the places the tube connects are well triangulated thru the rest of the frame. For track use I think it's a reasonable compromise.

A couple other sensible features are that the roll bar is well braced to strong frame areas that are triangulated to take large forces and the rear is protected by a pair of rear facing hoops made of roll cage material.

Car9 also manages this stiffness without a tube frame around the driveshaft, so you gain a couple of inches of cockpit space there. It uses a couple of solid bar hoops around the driveshaft for safety.

Wessonality, I am sorry I missed your post. I try to check this site a couple of times a day, but things get by me sometimes.. I'll try to email you or PM.

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Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.

The car being what it is, is there a version with a full roll cage? The pics look like a big roll bar at the rear, and then front of that, a diagonal that slants towards the bottom of the dash/scuttle. Am wary that in a full roll over, nothing protects the head (unless it is assumed that the racing harness will hold one firmly in place, and that the diagonals are sufficient enough to ensure that the driver isn't crushed?)

Marcus, thanks very much for this project, and the details you have put in it. I hope to start working on it in a few months (should be finished quickly, as I am just transplanting everything I already have -- no need to hunt down parts as it's all there; basically, it's just a chassis change).

Thanks very much again!

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Premier Сasual Dating

A full front roll bar has been requested several times and there is some provision for that in the drawings. No one has built one yet, but the most recent builder ( who is still lurking here ) is planning to do that. That seems like a good reason to do some updating of the drawings on the web site so let's get a start here and then I'll do the update.

The current car follows the guidelines for a low front hoop roll cage published by SCCA. It has a front hoop that wraps around the dash, it's a "Terry hoop" which means it's structural and is made from both an inner hoop and outer hoop that are connected by sheet metal or little tubes. The top hoop combined with the front hoop and other structure in the front of the car is designed to be well above a drivers head wearing a helmut. It offers formula or sports racer level of safety.

It's very reasonable to want a tall front hoop. It offers good windshield support and protection from deer and many things that could go over the hood in a frontal crash.

Getting in and out of the car becomes an issue though and people take different approaches to this. I think I like something that involves a step on the side of the car, followed by stepping over the rear roll bar and into the car. Then you can stencil "Step" and "No Step" on the car just like any good fighter plane.

The in/out issue comes from how you decide to connect the front and rear hoop at the top.

The front hoop probably requires moving the dash bulkhead forward just a bit and then the dash would hang from a few inches up the hoop. Let's do some pictures. Alfameister are you familiar with SketchUp or willing to learn a bit?

I'll get an early picture up later today.

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Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.