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PostPosted: May 25, 2014, 8:58 pm 
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The voice of reason
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Still looking for someone to share time on their modeling software.


What kind of software? It's not easy to share time...

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PostPosted: May 26, 2014, 11:04 am 
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Bent Wrench wrote:
. . . Still looking for someone to share time on their modeling software.


VSUP was mentioned before and that seems to be working well for a number of forum members. Also, there are some other free 2D and 3D programs:

1) Draftsight from Solidworks ==> http://www.3ds.com/products-services/dr ... /overview/

2) 123D from Autodesk ==> http://usa.autodesk.com/autodesk-123d/

3) SketchUp from Google ==> http://www.sketchup.com/

One of the above should move you along fairly well. Oh, and did I mention there's another option from Lotus Engineering? It's a little pricey, but if you want top-shelf, that may be the way to go: :mrgreen:

4) Lotus Engineering SHARK and Raven ==> http://www.lotuscars.com/gb/engineering ... g-software

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: May 26, 2014, 12:07 pm 
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I have VSUP and Sketchup and Autodesk123d

Will they will help me with bump steer or roll steer modeling?

VSUP will show camber RC and IC I don't see any provisions for steering.

There is also Wan31Model/WinGeo3 from Rowley/Mitchell.

I am hoping to find a share rather than use the buy button.

I could easily spend the value of my car for a one time use on software. I already have plenty of that, some not even used once!

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PostPosted: May 27, 2014, 7:19 am 
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Bent Wrench wrote:
I have VSUP and Sketchup and Autodesk123d

Will they will help me with bump steer or roll steer modeling?

VSUP will show camber RC and IC I don't see any provisions for steering.

There is also Wan31Model/WinGeo3 from Rowley/Mitchell.

I am hoping to find a share rather than use the buy button.

I could easily spend the value of my car for a one time use on software. I already have plenty of that, some not even used once!


find the program "wishbone", it's more of a manual process but has provisions for steer characteristics

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PostPosted: May 29, 2014, 8:14 am 
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horizenjob wrote:
Quote:
Still looking for someone to share time on their modeling software.


What kind of software? It's not easy to share time...


I want to 3D model the suspension with steering to eliminate as much trial and error as I can in building the frame.

I am especially concerned about geometry, camber gain, bump steer, and roll steer, as well as getting the roll center right.

I have skills to trade, Fuel Injection (MegaSquirt), Unit Repair (engine, trans), etc.

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PostPosted: September 13, 2014, 3:39 pm 
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Suffering project paralysis.

Too many questions and unknown factors, I don't know whether to ditch the idea or blunder on.

Seems like the deeper I dig into it the more questions I cant find answers to.

And the more overweight my project appears.

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PostPosted: September 13, 2014, 9:50 pm 
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Bent Wrench wrote:
Suffering project paralysis.

Too many questions and unknown factors, I don't know whether to ditch the idea or blunder on.

Seems like the deeper I dig into it the more questions I cant find answers to.

And the more overweight my project appears.


I see you took a look at the free Vsup (sp?) program. That didn't work for you?

May I suggest an alternative - pencil and paper. I'm not being smart here. You could probably find a large, second hand drafting table with a drafting machine attached for $250 or so. You could probably lay your suspension design out full size, at least one view at a time. You can find lots of cheap, old time books on descriptive geometry and/or graphic kinematics to calculate where things will go when they move.

You would have to layout the chassis in scale, but if you went with an established design (Champion, McSorley, Haynes, etc.) it would just be a matter of adapting those to your suspension layout. Maybe you could do a search of your local and nearby Craig's List cities and see what you find?

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: September 13, 2014, 10:49 pm 
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I once thought I had to design my own chassis in order to fit my tall self and suffered similar fears and pressures about screwing it up. So I read most of the big authors (never sprung for Milliken, though) and read everything I could find online, notably Mark Ortiz. I also played with VSUSP and Wishbone a lot.

The more I learned, the more I came to respect the Locost and Haynes chassis designs. The Haynes and 442e got me off the hook for designing my own, because they are big enough. I never modeled KB58's Midlana, but I know KB is a very serious student of vehicle dynamics and I am sure it is a great layout.

Even with a published chassis, there is a LOT the individual builder can do with selection and placement of components, materials, tweaking wishbone locations, and tuning. So why remake the wheel? What are you seeking to build?

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PostPosted: September 14, 2014, 12:25 am 
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anavrinIV wrote:
find the program "wishbone", it's more of a manual process but has provisions for steer characteristics

+1 on that! You can find the Windows version of Wishbone in this thread viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11985&start=30

Wishbone is a great compliment to Vsusp. Use Vsusp to get the 2D geometry working for you (camber curves, etc.) and then translate the coordinates to Wishbone for a 3D look at steering inputs, bump steer, Ackerman, anti-dive, etc. Not as slick an interface, but excellent math and results.

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My Car9 build: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613
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PostPosted: September 14, 2014, 12:37 am 
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Pete B, good to see you around again. Bent Wrench, you can leave here, but you might be back!

Pete has good points. You can use the designs he mentions and still make a wonderful car with lots of your personality and input in it. You can even go that route and have design paralysis :rofl: I am not sure I remember why I decided to make my own frame design and it has been a huge amount of work. I hope it pays off and honestly it's been help from other people that is making it possible for me.

Don't give up though and don't feel like your settling for something second rate just because you don't design every little thing.

People designed good and very successful race cars without software for the suspensions.

Maybe talk here about where you're unhappy with the work you've been doing. I think you will find that everyone here has had similar issues and bridges to cross. I am making progress but find even updating my build log to be difficult.

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SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


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PostPosted: September 14, 2014, 2:18 am 
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Thanks, Marcus! I should have mentioned Car9, which is another opportunity.

Bent Wrench, if you have a particular vision for a car that the readily available designs don't fit, by all means don't let that stop you. You could sketch it or post pictures of cars that appeal to you, decide on a power train and get the dimensions of the pieces that you'll use. You can use mockups (plastic pipe is great) to figure the sizes of the boxes to use for components and people. You need this information even if you are eventually going to execute your design in CAD.

To design the suspension you must start with the uprights you are going to use, wheels and tires. Don't buy the tires! :D These dictate where your outside pickups will be.

As for the inside pickups, that is the tricky part but:

  • Width is dictated by the size of components, be they engine, differential, or steering rack.
  • Bottom wishbones are either level or pointing up a little to generate a little extra camber gain in the early stages of roll.
  • Camber gain is driven by swing angle lengths.
  • For a given upright, there is a magic angle for the chassis tube to which inner pivots are attached, which limits roll center migration in bump, roll and combinations thereof at various mounting points for the wishbones. Engineering types could probably calculate it, but us mortals can find it in Wishbone by raising or lowering the upper pivot and moving across the horizontal plane until the sweet spot is found for the desired roll center height.
  • KPI affects camber gain, so any simulations should include steering inputs.

Professional automotive engineers are not so concerned about roll centers, opting instead for force-based models. However, geometric roll centers are reasonable approximations of force-based roll centers.

If none of the above makes any sense, that's ok. Keep reading, and plunk your measurements into Wishbone and experiment with them.

OK, that was a fun distraction. I'm working on taxes due Monday. :(

PS for those who may be wondering about my sudden re-appearance. I took care of aging parents 2007-2010 which took a lot of spare time and killed my accounting practice. Started a business with wife in 2010 (service provider agency for people with developmental disabilities, she is the pro) which is doing nicely now but keeps me busy. I still want to build, but with simplified plans as noted in my sig. I have a new garage with 50 amp service and am currently dismantling my donor. Very excited about some nice Haynes roadsters finished recently!

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PostPosted: September 14, 2014, 10:07 am 
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@Pete B

Do you have a build log yet?

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: September 14, 2014, 10:19 am 
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Lonnie-S wrote:
@Pete B

Do you have a build log yet?

Cheers,


Nope, just have some parts so far and a big list of to do's that come first. One of these days, though...

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