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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: August 13, 2010, 11:15 pm 
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Joined: July 26, 2010, 10:12 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Barrie, Ont, Canada
bremms wrote:
304 stainless doesn't corrode too easily. 400 series stuff is less corrosion resistant but is less expensive.
304 is more ductile. It does work harden a little ( not like 321 or 316). It is MUCH more crack resistant
than mild steel in exhausts
. I'll look at the properties again in detail.


Incorrect (to an extent). The mild steel may crack due to corrosion prior to the crack.
But, when stainless goes through constant heat cycles, like you see in exhausts, it becomes highly prone to cracking. Even more so if the SS exhaust sees a lot of weight, or vibration. If you look at any turbocharged high end race car. The exhaust and header/turbo manifold will most likely be made out of mild steel that be coated inside AND OUT. Or, some sort of exotic material like Incolnel, or a high grade SS.


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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: August 14, 2010, 8:27 am 
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Joined: February 28, 2009, 11:09 pm
Posts: 1307
Location: Connersville, Indiana
How much zinc would be applied to the inside of a tube during the electroplating process? Doesn't the plated metal tend to accumulate on the surfaces directly exposed to the source of the electron flow?

While phosphatizing is good, zinc phosphate is better. Offers the same "tooth" but with greatly increased rust inhibition. A guy looking to control rust and is considering zinc should should look into dipping the chassis into a zinc phosphate bath. Also, it is available from POR 15, labelled as "Metal Ready". Maybe a guy could get a gallon or so of the stuff, plug all the holes, pour it in the chassis and slosh it around to treat the inside. Short of that, it is a great material to spray onto the surface prior to painting. Check it out here. I've used a bit of it and needless to say, I like it.

http://www.por15.com/METAL-READY/productinfo/MRG/

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: August 14, 2010, 9:09 am 
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Joined: August 30, 2006, 10:26 am
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Location: Carmen, campeche, Mexico
BBlue wrote:
How much zinc would be applied to the inside of a tube during the electroplating process? Doesn't the plated metal tend to accumulate on the surfaces directly exposed to the source of the electron flow?

While phosphatizing is good, zinc phosphate is better. Offers the same "tooth" but with greatly increased rust inhibition. A guy looking to control rust and is considering zinc should should look into dipping the chassis into a zinc phosphate bath. Also, it is available from POR 15, labelled as "Metal Ready". Maybe a guy could get a gallon or so of the stuff, plug all the holes, pour it in the chassis and slosh it around to treat the inside. Short of that, it is a great material to spray onto the surface prior to painting. Check it out here. I've used a bit of it and needless to say, I like it.

http://www.por15.com/METAL-READY/productinfo/MRG/

Bill


Zinc deposits on the treated metal during the galvanizing process on a "line of sight" pattern, some Zinc will be deposited off this pattern, but not much.
Regarding the internal treatment of tubes, the Oxygen contained within is very little, it is best to keep the tubes hermetically sealed (Which is very difficult). or put some sort of Oil that during the oxidizing process depletes this residual oxygen.
Given also the amount of use these cars see, this last option is one of the most cost effective ones.
HTH
AA


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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: August 14, 2010, 10:18 am 
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I think the best idea is to build a spare frame right away. You can hang it on the wall to save it for later. What will likely happen though is you will look at the second frame and realize you improved your welding greatly and decide to use it! So investing a lot of extra time and materials in the first frame may not be the best investment. You would just be immortalizing your worst work so to speak.

The frame is a small percentage of the effort to get on the road. This is an interesting thread, but most who get a car running would say not to get hung up on this stage ( I think ). If you build another frame later, you can move the parts over in a couple of weekends...

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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: August 15, 2010, 11:50 am 
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Location: Columbia SC
Mild steel used in turbo exhausts is thick pipe. Usually 0.150-0.250" thick that's why it doesn't crack.
Only 321 or Inconel should be used on Turbo headers. 304 is fine for most NA cars other than highly
tuned motors or Rotary applications. As long as you don't get 304 above carbide precipitation temp
it is MUCH better than mild steel for exhaust applications. 409 is no good for headers. On a high
performance motor 321 is a better choice. Mild steel will crack when used in headers more easily than
304. The mild steel will thin due to corrosion, has too much heat transfer and it will crack more easily.
The steel pipe is a good idea since it's cheap and easy to weld. Turbos put a lot of mechanical
stress on the header(obviously). Along with additional heat it really causes problems. 321 16 ga
is minimum for turbo applications.

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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: August 16, 2010, 7:57 pm 
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Location: SW Wes Consin
I think the aircraft guys gas weld their frames with small holes in each tube to prevent hot gas blowing out the weld (not a big problem with TIG). Then they squirt linseed oil in the holes and slosh it around before draining it out. This probably works but sounds like something an OCD aircraft type would find acceptable. My guess is ol' CAEChapman never bothered with this whilst welding up chassis of scrap shelving bits.

Before you aircraft types take offense, I am VERY HAPPY you are OCD.


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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: August 16, 2010, 9:49 pm 
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The local Sears had a hundred feet of chrome plated 1" square in their dumpster, but I wasn't able to grab it... Sigh..
(from shelving or some type of display case. Now that I bothered to type all this in, I am picturing myself going back tomorrow )

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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: August 31, 2010, 10:28 pm 
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Joined: September 5, 2006, 11:00 pm
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Location: Columbia SC
I talked with some other engineers and looked a endurance limit data for 1018 steel
and 304 stainless. 304 wins!!! for >10,000,000 cycles

1018 values range from 29-31Ksi
304 Stainless 34-36Ksi

About 15% higher, so for the same size tubing it has a higher fatigue limit by 15%.
So you can very safely build a frame using 304. In fact; it will be stronger and have
at least the same service life.

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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: October 2, 2010, 1:27 am 
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Joined: April 24, 2008, 11:55 am
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Location: Bay Area
I'd use gavanized tube (cold rolled but don't actually think it is produced in square - electrical emt conduit is the same type of finish) and cold galvi spray the joints, on that note, I'd use cold rolled sheets to do my floor pans & bulkheads - galvi needs to be etched before painting. Is kind of a drag to weld but we do all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: February 8, 2011, 3:01 pm 
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Joined: February 8, 2011, 2:54 pm
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I'm planning a build using 409l as my basic raw material... My company makes exhaust systems and catalytic converters for cars and we do a lot of welding using this material. I want to know if 304l would be a better option or will 409l suffice. I'm not too keen on using ms due to the rust reasons. I'm going to use SS then coat it with a layer of heat resistant red oxide and a layer of heat resistant aluminum paint(capable of withstanding heats of up to 600*C).

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 Post subject: Re: Stainless frame
PostPosted: February 9, 2012, 2:02 am 
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Looks like most of the important stuff was covered. Stainless is a great choice really. race cars don't use it because it isn't strong enough to be worth the cost, and the purging requirements make it a real PITA to test for sound welds visually.
As mentioned, 409 works fine for med-temp stuff, but protects itself with a coarse oxide that appears similar to rust. 304 and most of the Austenitic stainless alloys have a homogenous, smooth chromium oxide on the surface that looks much nicer. 304 for a frame would be great as it has excellent fatigue properties, near as makes no difference double the elongation elongation(ductility) of mild steel, and it's stronger than 1018 by a good margin. All these things sound like good design pluses is a structural member under stress and dynamic loads.
Now, here are some drawbacks...

Fit-up must be perfect. As mentioned, it will distort more for a given heat input, so any gaps that require more filler and heat, will shrink more and cause issues. It also welds pretty terrible when fit-up is not precise. Add in that your shielding gas will be escaping at an alarming rate through said gaps, and it's less than perfect welds based on contamination. The leaking will cause a sharp jump in cost also.

TIG welding is really the only thing for a frame like this, so add about 4-5 times the hours if you were planning on a MIG job for your mild steel. Filler and gas costs go up about 5 fold, and so does the required skill level to get a quality result.

Cleanliness:
Stainless has to be near-surgical in terms of surface prep to be done right. This requires more equipment, more chemicals, careful selection of PPE, etc, etc.

Weight: Stainless weighs about 2.5% more than 1018 depending on the alloy. This is not insurmountable, but does add up. You can go thinner on the wall, but then you lose stiffness, and bending ability during fabrication. On the average frame this would only amount to about 3-5 lbs. Except for what's next....

You must, as mentioned, drill holes in every tube juncture in every tube to ensure good purge gas flow and fill. These should not be 1/8" holes like you need to reduce the pressure effect, but about 1/4-1/2" holes to allow the gas to move around efficiently. This will add in a very long wait time for a proper purge versus a typical exhaust job. I would guess a regular bottle of argon may only last one shot of purging and welding. This would mean a very long day to avoid doing it twice, if it's even possible to weld in a day.

Amperage: Stainless requires about 50% less heat to melt because of it's poor thermal conductivity. This means less amperage, and smaller filler wire. All this translates into much slower welding speeds. Whatever your buddy the chassis builder tells you about welding time on his 4130 stuff, add in 50%, plus the purge wait time.

In conclusion, this is an excellent choice for a frame given the properties. The extra cost is substantial, but it is the extra time to do it right that will cause most to pass. The extra skill is also a factor, although welding is not brain surgery. It merely requires 100% of the hand skill, and 10% of the theory.

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