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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:54 pm 
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I haven't yet seen pricing on the Motus engine. When I was researching the Motus vs H2, I also saw the H2 as being lighter, and designed to bolt up to regular transmissions.

ANY newer engine designed specifically for racing, not production, RACING! will cost north of $10k. Honestly, I'd expected the H2 to cost MUCH more than that. I'm surprised, intrigued, and wishing my wallet was not just fatter, but in need of thinning, as I'd be ALL OVER that. It looks like the perfect candidate for an ultralight.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:42 pm 
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killer_siller wrote:
I haven't yet seen pricing on the Motus engine. When I was researching the Motus vs H2, I also saw the H2 as being lighter, and designed to bolt up to regular transmissions.
The Motus has a transmission mounting face, just as with the H2, which will allow a bellhousing mate it to a 'regular' transmission. In fact it was engineered from the beginning for use in automotive applications in addition to motorcycles, unlike the Hartley which at it's heart is a motorcycle engine adapted for automotive use. I won't argue however that the Hartley is already available, is likely to make more peak hp at least in standard form, and may weigh less too.

killer_siller wrote:
ANY newer engine designed specifically for racing, not production, RACING! will cost north of $10k. Honestly, I'd expected the H2 to cost MUCH more than that...
Yes a complete engine designed from the ground up specifically for racing will cost multiples of $10k. But I think you give the H2 too much credit. Remember that the H2 is not designed specifically for racing (automotive or motorcycle) either. It's a Frankenstein engine, essentially being a glorified stock production Hayabusa engine, with a number of custom components like a "billet" crank case and dry sump. I've seen no real information on exactly how much engineering actually went into the design/development of the H2 components. If I were a betting man, I'd guess they just measured and copied to the best of their ability as much of the standard Hayabusa crankcase as possible, only changing it where necessary to eliminate the built in transmission and accommodate a more traditional bellhousing and flywheel. Maybe they got the actual files with exact critical dimensions and tolerances directly from Suzuki...Or maybe they just took their "best engineering estimate" as to what it could be based on measurements from a few production units. It's anybody's guess.

Not to say that the H2 is necessarily an under-engineered product, or is not more or less reasonably priced for what it is...Especially considering the amount of machining that goes into milling "cast" parts out of billet. But one thing about the Motus engine being designed for production vehicles with a warranty, is that if it ever does make go into prodution the KMV4 will have been rigorously tested for reliability and durability before ever being sold to the public.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:51 pm 
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Horizon,

I know you hang around racers and you may have already seen this. Everything has pros and cons, but if you want to see a "pro" for the LS motor look at the Grand Am prototypes. Especially with the back off during motor changes - ie, w/o plenums/airboxes. The LS motors literally look like a "short blocks" compared to the SOHC and DOHC BMW/Toyota/Ford. Really gives you a visual on how small that motor is compared to other motors of similar capacity. With the set of rules they play under, its a very good motor.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:22 am 
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With the set of rules they play under, its a very good motor.


That's pretty much what it comes down to. Rules are made to produce or favor what the rule makers or the manufacturers want. In a Locost, I think we can use compact more then we need OHC. Really though you have to sort thru what's available...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:31 pm 
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I'll admit the packaging of the LS engines is extraordinary. I've heard rumour that's why they kept with it; They didn't think OHCs would fit under the Corvette hood.

Unfortunately that packaging doesn't extend to the WEIGHT of the Motus engine. It claims to be heavier than the H2. A more direct comparison would be Honda's DOHC V-4. Unfortunately they never made them larger than 750cc that I know of.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:29 am 
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killer_siller wrote:
I'll admit the packaging of the LS engines is extraordinary. I've heard rumour that's why they kept with it; They didn't think OHCs would fit under the Corvette hood.

Unfortunately that packaging doesn't extend to the WEIGHT of the Motus engine. It claims to be heavier than the H2. A more direct comparison would be Honda's DOHC V-4. Unfortunately they never made them larger than 750cc that I know of.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:22 pm 
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I'm still kind of curious as to how the hartley will work in real life situations. How fast do those hayabusas spin? How many car transmissions can take 11k, 13k rpm?

Can they take it? I don't know, and have no idea.

edit: Hell, even bike transmissions generally use a reduction gear of 1.5:1 or thereabouts, don't they?

The v8's are warrantied for 30 hours, I read. No idea on the veracity of the source. That's track use, I'm assuming. What about street use for either the v8 or h2?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:35 pm 
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JSullivan wrote:
I'm still kind of curious as to how the hartley will work in real life situations. How fast do those hayabusas spin? How many car transmissions can take 11k, 13k rpm?

Can they take it? I don't know, and have no idea.

edit: Hell, even bike transmissions generally use a reduction gear of 1.5:1 or thereabouts, don't they?

The v8's are warrantied for 30 hours, I read. No idea on the veracity of the source. That's track use, I'm assuming. What about street use for either the v8 or h2?



You are correct, the Hyabusa's have reduction gearing in between the engine crank and the transmission input. Don't remember what the ratio is though.

Tom

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:36 am 
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Off Road SHO wrote:
JSullivan wrote:
I'm still kind of curious as to how the hartley will work in real life situations. How fast do those hayabusas spin? How many car transmissions can take 11k, 13k rpm?

Can they take it? I don't know, and have no idea.

edit: Hell, even bike transmissions generally use a reduction gear of 1.5:1 or thereabouts, don't they?

The v8's are warrantied for 30 hours, I read. No idea on the veracity of the source. That's track use, I'm assuming. What about street use for either the v8 or h2?



You are correct, the Hyabusa's have reduction gearing in between the engine crank and the transmission input. Don't remember what the ratio is though.

Tom

The 2004+ R1 uses a reduction of 1.512 between the crank and the transmission.

In the MotoIQ article about the MiataBusa, I believe they calculated that the Hyabusa engine's RPMs after the primary gear reduction would be a very close match to the Miata's original crank speeds into the transmission.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:58 pm 
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JSullivan wrote:
... How fast do those hayabusas spin? How many car transmissions can take 11k, 13k rpm? Can they take it? I don't know, and have no idea....

They use a Quaife sequential gearbox and the engine and transmission together run around $42,000... but this thread isn't about cost :?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:56 am 
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killer_siller wrote:
A more direct comparison would be Honda's DOHC V-4. Unfortunately they never made them larger than 750cc that I know of.
In addition to the VFR750F being upgraded to 800cc when it also received fuel injection in 1998, Honda has a couple of bigger V4's as well. While brand new for 2010, you may be able to find a little bit on the VFR1200F's new V4 engine, as occasionally the press releases will included technical data like engine weights on their latest and greatest new gadgets. For a "big" fuel injected DOHC V4 that's been around a bit longer, specs might be available somewhere on the ST1300 engine as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:13 pm 
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I mean, I'd love to see a compact, lightweight, moderately powerful engine readily available and affordable. But wouldn't we all? :roll:

KB58 wrote:
JSullivan wrote:
... How fast do those hayabusas spin? How many car transmissions can take 11k, 13k rpm? Can they take it? I don't know, and have no idea....

They use a Quaife sequential gearbox and the engine and transmission together run around $42,000... but this thread isn't about cost :?


Shoot, if the motus isn't vaporware, I bet you could eventually buy the entire motus bike for half that or less.

If Motus follows through with their 'It's for cars too!' claims and provide an affordable way to connect to to a readily available, quality car transmission or 3? Say Duratec, Ecotec or older Miata? And if it makes 160, 180 horsepower, while being affordable? It might really be interesting.

You know, I really love the idea of both the Hartley H2 and the Motus KMV4. But it's just so hard to see that they aren't impractical because of price and transmission options.

Or vaporware. I emailed Motus in late December, they said things will get exciting in 6 months, so we'll see. :cheers:


edit: frame and engine on a dyno, and moving under it's own power...but no numbers! :boxing:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:09 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:37 pm 
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JSullivan wrote:
If Motus follows through with their 'It's for cars too!' claims and provide an affordable way to connect to to a readily available, quality car transmission or 3? Say Duratec, Ecotec or older Miata? And if it makes 160, 180 horsepower, while being affordable? It might really be interesting.
I would guess that at least the first, and ultimately most common, automotive use bellhousing/flywheel/clutch kit available would be designed to mount to a Hewland (or similar) type transaxle intended specifically for small race/track cars.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:41 pm 
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I would guess that at least the first, and ultimately most common, automotive use bellhousing/flywheel/clutch kit available would be designed to mount to a Hewland (or similar) type transaxle intended specifically for small race/track cars.


Nowadays the Hewlands are bolted to custom adapters specific to the race car because they contain the oil sump or whatever. THe little old ones were put int VW cases and a small adapter was used. So it's not so clear what they would do. Perhaps just make their own adapters. Probably they need someone to buy their engines for a series of cars and then it's worth whatever work to do something custom.

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