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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:30 pm 
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I can't figure out what bellhousing I need to match up a T5 out of a 1983 S10 that had a 4cy with a 3800 V6 out of a 1997 Firebird.

I'm googled for an hour and can't seem to find the answer.

Also, any idea what flywheel and clutch I would use?


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:15 pm 
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I'm using a 3.4 and t5 out of a 95 Camaro. I think I've explored tons of options. Some notes:

-- My understanding is that the Camaro 3.8 used the same bell as the later Camaro 3.4 EXCEPT for the HTOB location. The bell off of the old 2.8 and 3.1 Camaro motors should bolt up to the motor as well.

-- From 82 to 92, the bell housings have old-style "Chevy" pattern to bolt on the transmission. From ’93 on, V6 Camaro and I-4 S-10 used T-5’s with the tall-narrow Ford pattern. SOOOO while your bell might bolt up to the engine, it might not bolt up to your trans.

Therefore, I'm betting you'd want to head to a pre-92 bell housing out of a 2.8 powered Gen III Camaro to fit both motor and trans, but you'll have to look at your trans to make sure.

Good discussion here: http://www.mgexp.com/archive/V6_convers ... on/1248068

-- As I said, the 3.4 uses a external slave that moves a fork that the throwout rides, while the 3.8 has an internal slave with the throwout built in. The internal bearing gives you fewer hassles in building the thing, while the external is a lot easier to replace later on.

-- The 60 degree Camaro motors used starters on the passenger's side on the Camaro motors. The 2.8 in the Fiero and all the FWD stuff had starters on the driver's side (well, it would be the driver's side if the motor went north-south). I think that the S10's used driver's side starters as well. Your S10 trans probably came with a bell for a starter on the driver's side, and I have one of those, should you want to mount the starter on the "Wrong" side. You can always use your S10 bell (and clutch, etc) if you simply drill and tap holes for the S10 starter position if your motor has a space for that. The Fiero guys know how to move starters.

There are "double bubble" bell housings, with a starter bubble on both sides -- I had one and sold it to another person here (Welder Lee). They are rare. Welder Lee owes me a ride when he gets his build done.

SOME OTHER THOUGHTS:

The T5 out of the Camaro has the shifter mounted in the rear of the trans, instead of roughly 6" forward in the S10. This means that the Camaro shifter will roughly be parallel with the steering wheel in your build. In fact, until I moved my steering column, I hit the steering wheel going into second gear. With the S10 trans, you're looking at either a long curved shifter, or a remote shifter (most of the Cobra guys use one of these 'cause the Ford trans location is roughly the same place), or shifting gears under your dash.

*Personally* I'd sell the S10 T5 and go with the entire shooting match out of the Camaro -- Engine, bell, clutch, T5. You know they're all as GM intended it. That way you can get to the part that will probably vex you the most -- the EFI.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:06 am 
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Thanks for the info. After thinking more objectively, I have decided this swap is beyond my abilities unfortunately at this time. Or maybe I'm just lazy.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:17 am 
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cardude01 wrote:
Thanks for the info. After thinking more objectively, I have decided this swap is beyond my abilities unfortunately at this time. Or maybe I'm just lazy.


No, it's the smart move.

Grab the engine, trans and drive shaft from the Camaro. And the ECU. And all of the dash, headlight, and engine wiring (you need it all to start the car with the OEM wiring) and switches and gauges. Grab the fuel pump too -- if you don't use it on your build, you can always sell it for good money. Grab the calipers, rotors, and if you're lucky, the rear disk brake stuff (that alone is worth $400). The steering column is very usable, you'll just want to swap out steering wheels if you don't want a "Camaro" air bag looking at you.

The rear seats are really good prospects if you don't want "racing" seats, or seats that are adjustable. The front seats are huge, but if you want to do surgery on the foam, might be usable.

The steering rack on that car is VERY wide, and they all use power steering -- but if you want one, I've got one (the Chevette p/s might be the much cheaper, better option). The pedals are huge by Locost standards (I've got those too). The rear axle is very wide too -- would recommend one of the Ford IRS setups, ie, Bronco, TBrird, LS, etc. The wheels/tires are very wide, with a ton of offset, so you'd need a very wide rear axle as well as loooong A-arms to clear a +2 ("Haynes") chassis (ask me how I know). The steering arms... you'd have to modify the top part, where it heads to the top A-arm, but I'm thinking that the rest of it approaches "ideal".

The T5 is the preferable trans for our use. The T56 is twice the size, twice the weight, and 3x the price. Our cars are light, don't have killer HP, and the tires break loose before the trans breaks.

The Camaro guys go for the 4:10 rear ends, if not higher. Well, with our cars, anything much higher than 3:42 will result in 3rd gear starts and 2 useless gears. With a Jack McCornack "Lola" style body, you'll have a top end that will scare the hell outta you unless you're a professional race car driver.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:36 am 
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I need to fully splain what I have going here. I bought a running driving completed locost from a guy, but its not how I would like it to be set up. Had some brake issues I think I have handled. Had some suspension issues I'm working through.

The engine is a buzzare 3L GM 4cylinder out of a boat, with two S&S carbs on it. It runs, but spits and sputters at around 4k rpm, and its big and heavy and with not much power. The PO fabbed up a custom intake to make tge carbs work, but I don't think I'll ever get this engine running good enough to be satisfied. I knew all this going in, and its OK to tool around town in, but I would like to take it to a local track and try it one day, but not with this engine/fuel setup.

The t5 is out of a 1983 s10, along with the rear end and brakes. PO bought a special flywheel and bell housing and I have no idea what clutch.

I'm not sure if I want to complicate my life with a full blown EFI engine swap, especially since I don't have any experience. Any ideas on a bolt up "easy" engine swap for my existing trans set up? What about flywheel and clutch issues? Oh, I also don't want to spend big money. :-)


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:43 am 
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Quote:
The t5 is out of a 1983 s10, along with the rear end and brakes. [SNIP]
I'm not sure if I want to complicate my life with a full blown EFI engine swap, especially since I don't have any experience. Any ideas on a bolt up "easy" engine swap for my existing trans set up? What about flywheel and clutch issues? Oh, I also don't want to spend big money.

Yo, CarDude-
Personally, I liked Geek's suggestion about transplanting the Camaro driveline.

However, if you don't want the complication of the electronics (who can blame ya?), and you already have S10/Chevy trans bits, I'd suggest you research a Chevy engine along with Chevy flywheel/clutch/bellhousing that'll fit that trans, etc. I don't know 'zackly what will fit what in Chevy-land, but I'm sure there are folks around that do. My first thought is to go with a 4-cyl with a carb out of an S10, as that seems like it would be simple and inexpensive... Or a V6, also carbed, also Chevy?

I bet you can glean some knowledge on mixing and matching S10 engines/trans from forums on the S10.
Happy hunting!
:cheers:
JDK

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Location: Raleigh-Durham NC
GonzoRacer wrote:
However, if you don't want the complication of the electronics (who can blame ya?), and you already have S10/Chevy trans bits, I'd suggest you research a Chevy engine along with Chevy flywheel/clutch/bellhousing that'll fit that trans, etc. I don't know 'zackly what will fit what in Chevy-land, but I'm sure there are folks around that do. My first thought is to go with a 4-cyl with a carb out of an S10, as that seems like it would be simple and inexpensive... Or a V6, also carbed, also Chevy?

I bet you can glean some knowledge on mixing and matching S10 engines/trans from forums on the S10.
Happy hunting!
:cheers:
JDK


The 2.8 wheezer in the S10 was Carb'd. I don't recall that the 3800 was ever used. I recall that the next step was the 4.3 V6, which is the SBC minus 2 cylinders. That 4.3 hasn't been a popular motor in our builds.

The original Stalker was designed for the 3.4 crate block that many used to rebuild the 2.8 wheezer when it died. They used the Edelbrock 3785 base, the Edelbrock 3789 top, and a 350 cfm carb on that thing, probably a cam, and probably hit 200 hp with it. This meant that the wiring got reallllly simple too. The remaining issues had to do with relocating the alternator, and making sure that the water pump rotated in the proper direction once the alternator was remounted.

The 2.8/3.1/3.4 RWD motors can have the modern GM 3500 heads and intake bolted on to it, and you suddenly have a 12:1 compression ratio and all of the good flow that people used to pay to get with the old iron heads (they are called "Hybrid" motors on teh forums). I hear that this gives somewhere in excess of 200 hp, and I intend on finding out someday (I already have the parts).

However, we're not talking about the 3.4, but rather, the 3800. The first question that would come to mind is whether the supercharger from the old Bonneville SC would fit. IF that block is the same as the FWD vehicle, then I'm betting there's a bunch of performance parts. I'm betting the Gen 4 Camaro crowd has that figured out, along with the Fiero guys.

**********

Sorry about that S10 trans. I'm betting if the S10 trans was used (is the shifter at the end of the trans, or 6" in front of that point?), then the builder probably used the S10 bell housing (unless he went custom?). The S10 bell has the starter on the driver's side as I recall, is smaller than the Camaro setup, has a smaller flywheel (and corresponding clutch parts). I'm not sure, but I recall a cable actuated clutch maybe? AT least, if I was doing a S10 trans, that's how I would do it. IT is also possible that the builder used parts from a Z27 Cavalier for the clutch.

If that is the case, you can still bolt in a Camaro V6, reusing all of the clutch parts.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:01 pm 
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geek49203 wrote:
GonzoRacer wrote:
However, if you don't want the complication of the electronics (who can blame ya?), and you already have S10/Chevy trans bits, I'd suggest you research a Chevy engine along with Chevy flywheel/clutch/bellhousing that'll fit that trans, etc. I don't know 'zackly what will fit what in Chevy-land, but I'm sure there are folks around that do. My first thought is to go with a 4-cyl with a carb out of an S10, as that seems like it would be simple and inexpensive... Or a V6, also carbed, also Chevy?

I bet you can glean some knowledge on mixing and matching S10 engines/trans from forums on the S10.
Happy hunting!
:cheers:
JDK


The 2.8 wheezer in the S10 was Carb'd. I don't recall that the 3800 was ever used. I recall that the next step was the 4.3 V6, which is the SBC minus 2 cylinders. That 4.3 hasn't been a popular motor in our builds.

The original Stalker was designed for the 3.4 crate block that many used to rebuild the 2.8 wheezer when it died. They used the Edelbrock 3785 base, the Edelbrock 3789 top, and a 350 cfm carb on that thing, probably a cam, and probably hit 200 hp with it. This meant that the wiring got reallllly simple too. The remaining issues had to do with relocating the alternator, and making sure that the water pump rotated in the proper direction once the alternator was remounted.

The 2.8/3.1/3.4 RWD motors can have the modern GM 3500 heads and intake bolted on to it, and you suddenly have a 12:1 compression ratio and all of the good flow that people used to pay to get with the old iron heads (they are called "Hybrid" motors on teh forums). I hear that this gives somewhere in excess of 200 hp, and I intend on finding out someday (I already have the parts).

However, we're not talking about the 3.4, but rather, the 3800. The first question that would come to mind is whether the supercharger from the old Bonneville SC would fit. IF that block is the same as the FWD vehicle, then I'm betting there's a bunch of performance parts. I'm betting the Gen 4 Camaro crowd has that figured out, along with the Fiero guys.

**********

Sorry about that S10 trans. I'm betting if the S10 trans was used (is the shifter at the end of the trans, or 6" in front of that point?), then the builder probably used the S10 bell housing (unless he went custom?). The S10 bell has the starter on the driver's side as I recall, is smaller than the Camaro setup, has a smaller flywheel (and corresponding clutch parts). I'm not sure, but I recall a cable actuated clutch maybe? AT least, if I was doing a S10 trans, that's how I would do it. IT is also possible that the builder used parts from a Z27 Cavalier for the clutch.

If that is the case, you can still bolt in a Camaro V6, reusing all of the clutch parts.


Here is some discussion on this engine by one of the members here:

"The transmission is a T5 from a 1984 S10, so the s10 came with a bellhousing (sometimes referred to as the metric bell) to fit the engines I mentioned. This is a common 5 speed transmission.

However, I think the Mercruiser 3.0L was made with only the small block chevy bellhousing pattern.

The iron duke of the 70s has the sbc pattern. The iron duke of the 80s has the metric bell pattern.

The sbc bell fits the metric bell T5 by shortening the retainer bearing tube and the input shaft tip where it goes into the crank, to prevent bottoming out in the crank, damaging the thrust bearings.
One way to avoid a modified trans with lower torque capacity is to use the T5 that came with the 4.3L v6 (a couple years later in s10s) or the v8 T5 that came in firebirds and camaros.

What all this means is that if the owner wanted more power and/or cylinders, a 4.3L vortec v6 should fit and be a little shorter than the 3.0L but wider, and a 283/327/305/334s/350/383s/400/427s (s=stroked sbc) would be about the same length but the same width as the 4.3L v6.

There is also a mercruiser 3.7L that should bolt up, but I think the 4.3 or a small v8 with aluminum heads, intake, and short pump would be a better choice.

Given the lack of traction and weight, I think the s10 driveline would hold up with regular street tires, depending a lot on the operator.

The 3.0L is based on the 2.5L iron duke, but everything is not freely interchangeable, just as parts on a 1996 sbc dont fit a 1970 sbc"


The bell housing is a new GM part, and it made for a standard hook up to the T-5 five-speed gearbox. It has a new S-10 clutch and pressure plate, and all the holes matched. The PO had the marine flywheel machined down to remove weight and had it drilled and taped for the S-10 clutch.

So after re-reading this post it doesn't look like I can use this transmission unless I want to do all that bearing-tube-input-shaft-modification whoohaa, that I would probably screw up.

It's gotta be fairly easy for me to do it...........


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:42 am 
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I think you are quoting me with the previous post.

You need a custom flywheel for this application. These are available from WestCoast Fiero for fwd applications. They are much more expensive than an oem flywheel, and cost as much as a reasonable deal on a used 3800 t5. Some have modified a v6-60 flywheel by plugging and redrilling the holes to fit the 3800 crank. Fwd and s10 application flywheels are very similar, but the car flywheels are much thicker, requiring changes at the fork or swap to the hydraulic release bearing that's been mentioned. Many people have had issues with HRBs and unlike a slave cylinder, they are a lot of work to change.

To keep it simple, especially when it comes time to replace parts again and you may not remember all the details, I suggest you pickup a T5 and flywheel for a 3800 camaro or firebird. It will be much stronger than the s10 T5 and uses atf instead of gear lube. They are also cheap because demand is lower.

I doubt calling the 2.8 a "wheezer" is from any personal experience, but even a ls motor pulling an rv could be considered a wheezer.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:16 am 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
(great stuff was here, just trimmed the thing)

To keep it simple, especially when it comes time to replace parts again and you may not remember all the details, I suggest you pickup a T5 and flywheel for a 3800 camaro or firebird. It will be much stronger than the s10 T5 and uses atf instead of gear lube. They are also cheap because demand is lower.

I doubt calling the 2.8 a "wheezer" is from any personal experience, but even a ls motor pulling an rv could be considered a wheezer.


The T5 from the 93-95 V6 Camaro should be identical as well -- I can vouch that they certainly leak ATF and not lube. I can't see that the input shafts, spline counts, etc are different. I have 2 of them, so I can vouch that they should be relatively cheap -- since the T56 came out, most people go for the T56 instead of a T5 when they're building a muscle car.

You nail the point on the "wheezer" -- it was overmatched in the S10 and Camaro, was hampered by its smog and economy concessions, and tended to kinda wheeze out after a while. In its era, 120 or so HP certainly seemed like it was powerful, but now my base 4 cyl Toyota claims 200 hp. (I will concede that Toyota has been accused of inflating its HP numbers.) As many pointed out, put into a lighter vehicle, and with a bit of engineering, it does well. In fact, the 3500 in the FWD cars is pretty much proof that it just needed some work and a lighter vehicle -- the heads and intake from that motor are almost a direct bolt in for that old block. And while the 3.4 motors seemed to go over 200,000 miles with regularity, the 2.8 tended to spin a bearing or two before that.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:26 am 
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You are lumping all 2.8s into one category. The earliest 2.8s had a different crank arrangement. The later models with the one piece rear main are no different from a 3.1.

As for comparisons, this is not a race and more is not better, it's just more. More is not better.

It's obvious you have no experience with the 2.8. Good luck with your statistics.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:49 am 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
It's obvious you have no experience with the 2.8. Good luck with your statistics.


Just tore down a couple of the 2.8's in my garage on the way to discovering my current 3.4's... which I've torn down one to find it horribly ruined, and hope springs eternal for the second since it is sitting in my frame as I do the wiring and fuel delivery for it. Oh, and that 3.1 FWD build. And the 3500 that I tore down for parts.

Other than that, yes, I am total w/o experience.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:19 am 
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Anybody can take something apart. That provides no clue as to how a good one runs.
You have no justification for calling it a wheezer.

Also, don't PM me with your personal problems, or anything else.
:cheers:


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