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PostPosted: September 11, 2015, 6:34 pm 
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kickerfox wrote:
From what I've read, it's shifts well compared to a T5 or T56.


You hit the nail on the head because it feels like a big Vette, Camaro or Viper transmission, but that's still bad when compared to most import RWD transmissions.

If you have other options I'd seriously look very hard at them before settling. If you don't have options then you just make the best of what you've got.

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PostPosted: September 11, 2015, 8:37 pm 
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I know from experience that the Isuzu motor has got plenty of torque with a broad curve. The ratios may not be ideal for a four-banger, but a torquey 6 is a different story. In a fully equipped Rodeo (about 4000 lbs) with a 4-spd slush box, I never felt deprived in the acceleration department. Imagine what it would do in a Locost! :twisted:

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PostPosted: September 11, 2015, 9:04 pm 
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CarGuy - RWD imports don't make anywhere near the torque of a V8 muscle car. You can't compare the the two and blame the transmission. Import transmissions are much smaller, lighter, and shift faster with a lighter feel because the internals are smaller (and weaker) and they have tiny little clutch discs.


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PostPosted: September 11, 2015, 9:06 pm 
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ngpmike wrote:
Imagine what it would do in a Locost! :twisted:


You should build one and find out! :)


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PostPosted: September 11, 2015, 10:09 pm 
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I would love to, but I've already got two Miata motors and trannys out in the garage!

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PostPosted: September 11, 2015, 11:01 pm 
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ngpmike wrote:
I would love to, but I've already got two Miata motors and trannys out in the garage!


That's 2 too many. :)


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PostPosted: September 26, 2015, 9:18 pm 
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Hey, kickerfox. I don't mean to bother, but I've been reading up on various ≥400hp V6 engines for a personal project. My first choices were the VQ, 1MZ/3MZ, 1GR-FE, etc. but $$$ + limited manual RWD transmission options left me wavering before I stumbled on your RX8Club thread. I've read all 44 pages several times despite the hostile audience & also your Planetisuzoo threads after stumbling on them whilst trying to find out more info about the engine. I'm sold on the 6VD1. I must say that you, alone, have compiled the most complete specs list for this engine anywhere that I've seen online, so first: Thank you, man! Second: On my first trip to the local yard I managed to find 3 complete '98-'00 6VD1s in decent shape (for <$200!), but before I drop any coin I hope you don't mind clarifying a few things for a newbie such as myself. Please forgive my limited automotive experience.

'98-'03 was chosen for the taller deck + longer rods. '04 is out b/c GDI. 3.2L was chosen for the stronger crank, higher rev potential, and to more closely match the 3.0L-spec of your T25s (not a factor in my case but the 3.2L still seems to be the best forced-induction platform).

Your list of CRs specifies all but that of the '01-'03 3.2L. External sources list 9.1:1. However, post #678 of your build thread mentions the following:

kickerfox wrote:
Since I'm in this engine anyways, I have the option of going with the lower compression pistons. Stock for this year was 9.8:1.


Just trying to confirm the CR since you have the engine in-hand.

So the '00+ uses drive-by-wire? I understand you originally bought a '00 Trooper engine, but ultimately swapped the block for a '99. You ended up using a Ford V8 throttle body, so I'm thinking I needn't necessarily avoid a DBW 6VD1 since a custom intake manifold is necessary for forced induction anyways, yes? Although, wouldn't I need to bypass the DBW system on the ECU? Any other yearly differences for the '98-'03 3.2L apart from a 0.1:1 increase in CR?

Otherwise: the 6VD1 RPMs are limited by cam grind, valve springs & crank. And a head job + cam grind + forged crank = $$$, so RPMs are effectively set in stone. Just to confirm. Sorry for all the questions. I would gladly pay you for your time!

I see you modified your serpentine configuration & switched to all-plastic pulleys to shed approx. 15-20lb of rotating mass. Awesome! That bracket is gorgeous. How did you rotate the belt tensioner?

I understand you had some coolant outlet flanges fabricated to make room for the Ford V8 TB, replacing the OEM outlet tube. The T25s are oil & water cooled, thus you made the outlet flanges thick enough to drill ports in them later to feed coolant to the turbos. But, since they're outlet ports, won't the coolant already be hot before reaching the turbos?

I noticed you mentioned potentially using the '04 [EDIT: oil] pump. Did you end up using that or sticking with OEM?

I don't know jack about plumbing a turbo. Would you mind briefly explaining the function of your custom AN-16 oil adaptor? Also, your custom oil distribution block? Fuel pump venturi? Why are you considering removing the valvecover baffles? Many apologies & many thanks ahead of time.

Also -- and I can't stress this enough -- AWESOME BUILD!!!


Last edited by kaistallings on October 3, 2015, 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: October 2, 2015, 12:58 am 
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Wow that's a lot.

My goal is 400hp. Maybe 450hp (if I'm lucky) but my little T25s are going to be hurting. From everything I've been told (by Luke at HP Heaven) the bottom end can take it. They have done 700hp builds on the stock crank but I believe they had pistons made for that. I have a friend running 12PSI in an Amigo (on stock internals) and his engine management is, lets just say, less then ideal. Let me also say, due to his engine management, I have no idea how he hasn't blown it up yet. :) He has drive-by-wire and I know he shimmed his valve springs. I'll also have drive-by-wire but I'm using the RX8's throttle body. The RX8 reluctor wheel was put on the Isuzu crank pulley. The RX8 ECU is responsible for throttle, idle control, cruise, and traction control.

If I were you I'd stick with the '98 cable throttle body and '98 ECU then add an AEM FIC-8 piggyback because it has frequency based MAF control and a boost controller. That's the best bang for the buck IF you need to retain OBDII. If not, look into the AEM infinity or even a Megasquirt. FYI the Isuzu reluctor is a 60-2. Any aftermarket ECU can work with the stock Isuzu crank and cam pulses. But it is still very easy to add an aftermarket reluctor to the crank pulley.

I forget which water pump I used. I think it was actually the oil pump that had a change in '04? to provide more volume to the heads. The '98 pumps will be fine.

The AN oil adapter was to eliminate the oil filter neck. I want to run a remote filter, oil thermostat, and oil cooler. And as you can see, it allows me to put 1/8 npt ports in the side of it. One is for an oil feed to the turbos (clean oil in), the other is for a temp sensor (hot oil out).

The rerouting of the belt was to allow the throttle body to be placed lower. Originally, a housing was between the heads that combine the two coolant outlets into a radiator house neck. That housing held one of the stock idler pulleys. The other idler pulley was placed because the Isuzu cooling fan assembly was removed. It was belt driven. As for the tensioner... On the back there is a notch where the spring sits. I simply drilled a hole in the mounting bracket and drove a dowl pin into it that will line up with the notch. This keeps the tensioner from rotating. Simple and effective. Or you can just make a strap between the threaded hole and the bolt hole in the tensioner. Either works.

My first engine was from a 2000 Passport. Was the second (Rodeo) a '99? I forget already. I'm pretty sure I grabbed the ECU from that car. But I know I have a '98 Amigo ECU here. Good thing I have a spare because we're in the process of hacking the firmware.

What else was there... Compression ratio? Pretty sure mine is 9.1:1 but I never measured it. I have heard that this engine is fairly resistant to detonation. Supermarine aircraft supercharges it to 350hp without intercooling it. I spoke with them on the phone and was told they use internally unmodified engines. I believe they said they run Haltec? Motec? engine management but don't quote me because I forget when they said. It was a standalone so I ignored the information.

Don't be so hard on the heads just yet. Once you get a set in hand you'll see that they should flow quite nicely. The exhaust ports are pretty damn big, as are the intake ports. Lift may not be a limiting factor. Remember, this is just over a 93mm bore. That's a lot of valve room. Actually it has 34mm intake valves and 29mm exhaust valves. Not too bad for a 533cc cylinder. The 3.5L runs a 6* longer duration (240* vs. 234* on the 3.2L) on both cams. I would have to spend quite a bit of time on a bench engine mock-up to see what can be gained and if that extra 6* benefits a turbo build. I'd say 6* later on the intake is a good thing because when your under boost you have some positive pressure that'll stay in the bore a little longer while the piston is on the up stroke. On the exhaust side I'm not so sure. There's more backpressure there and keeping that hot gas out of the combustion chamber is a good thing. So if anything, swapping the intake cams for that extra 6* -could- help, but then again, just turn the boost up. :)

Not sure what trans you'll go with but check out this calculator. http://www.teammfactory.com/gear-calculator Enter some random 5-speed out of a car you like vs. the Solstice ratios which can be found here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisin_AR_transmission Isuzu has a 6500rpm rev-limiter. At least it was in the Amigo I briefly owned. That's really not all that limiting because of how wide the torque curve will be. Don't get too hung up on peak numbers. :) If you haven't handed someone their ass by 6500rpm, chances are 7000rpm wouldn't have helped ya. ;)

I'm using the Isuzu bellhousing with the Solstice trans as I'm sure you know. I recently decided to shave .300" off the front, and .100" off the rear of the bellhousing. This gets me better spline contact with the disc and puts the nose of the input shaft into the crank. An adapter for the pilot bearing is still needed but the Miata pilot bearing is prefect for the job. If your serious about doing this build let me know. I'm about to have another pilot spacer made and I'll have a 2nd one made at the same time if your interested. Also, if you need the STEP files for the coolant flange, oil flange, or exhaust flange, let me know.


Did I miss anything?


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PostPosted: October 2, 2015, 10:44 am 
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Kicker, good to hear from you again! I have 2 quick questions for you.

1.) Are these 'interference', or 'clearance' engines? In other words, if you break a timing belt, how screwed are you?

2.) Are these engines still built/used somewhere? I'm guessing they are since I can't imagine Supermarine Aircraft using boneyard rebuilds!

Thanx again for your research and sharing! :cheers:

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PostPosted: October 2, 2015, 2:36 pm 
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ngpmike wrote:
Kicker, good to hear from you again! I have 2 quick questions for you.

1.) Are these 'interference', or 'clearance' engines? In other words, if you break a timing belt, how screwed are you?

2.) Are these engines still built/used somewhere? I'm guessing they are since I can't imagine Supermarine Aircraft using boneyard rebuilds!

Thanx again for your research and sharing! :cheers:


I've read mixed opinions online about it being interference or not. The timing procedure involves rotating the camshafts by themselves until the marks line up. I never checked where the pistons were when the timing marks are in position but I assume #1 is TDC. I know the piston to head clearance is tight. I had one engine with so much carbon on the piston that it had marks in the carbon from the quench area. Timing belt service interval is 100k miles.

The Honda Passport EX 2WD V6-3.2L DOHC (6VD1) (1998) manual says: "The V6 engine has a "non-interference" design. This means the valves never contact the pistons, even when the valves or camshafts are not correctly timed, or even if a valve is fully open and its piston is at top dead center (TDC)."

I'm going to say it's a non-Interference engine. I've never see one with a broken timing belt at the junk yards and I've seen tons of these engines during my research. :) I have heard the belt tensioner has failed on some causing a bunch of noise.

I'm not sure if it's still in production on not. Supermarine may be buying surplus engines. They use the 3.5L. These v6s were used in huge numbers and may still be in production for other countries.


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PostPosted: October 3, 2015, 3:33 pm 
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A question....
Can one use the early (short deck) DOHC (9.8-1 CR) 3.2 pistons with the late (tall deck) DOHC (9.1-1 CR) 3.2 block and bottom end?

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PostPosted: October 3, 2015, 3:47 pm 
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oldejack wrote:
A question....
Can one use the early (short deck) DOHC (9.8-1 CR) 3.2 pistons with the late (tall deck) DOHC (9.1-1 CR) 3.2 block and bottom end?


I doubt it but if the compression height is the same they may. The '04 10.3:1 pistons are a better bet. Could have them milled down to 9.8:1.

It's been a long time since I dug up specs on these engines. The only reason I did was to find which version of the engine was best suited for my application.


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PostPosted: October 3, 2015, 8:58 pm 
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kickerfox wrote:
Wow that's a lot.


Sorry! :oops: I'm very serious about this build, but my automotive experience is limited. I'm trying to keep my questions limited so as not to bother, but I'm so very green to all this. I plan to run the engine stock for a time just to get the car on the ground, but I want to be sure I nab the correct platform for future modding.

kickerfox wrote:
I'll also have drive-by-wire but I'm using the RX8's throttle body. The RX8 reluctor wheel was put on the Isuzu crank pulley. The RX8 ECU is responsible for throttle, idle control, cruise, and traction control.


Oh, I seem to remember you tinkering with a 65mm Ford V8 TB -- but now I see it's b/c you read that the 8's was 75mm, then discovered it's only 70mm. Was the RX8's reluctor chosen for better compatibility with the 8's ECU? Choice of TB is a little over my head atm, but thanks for the confirmation!

kickerfox wrote:
If I were you I'd stick with the '98 cable throttle body and '98 ECU then add an AEM FIC-8 piggyback because it has frequency based MAF control and a boost controller. That's the best bang for the buck IF you need to retain OBDII.


Thanks for the advice! OBDII retention sounds like a good idea for a daily driver.

kickerfox wrote:
Any aftermarket ECU can work with the stock Isuzu crank and cam pulses.


So the ECU reads pulses from the ESS (engine speed sensor?) and the CPS (camshaft position sensor?) to control ignition?

kickerfox wrote:
I forget which water pump I used. I think it was actually the oil pump that had a change in '04? to provide more volume to the heads. The '98 pumps will be fine.


Oil pump! That's what I meant. The '04 oil pump swap is just an experiment, then?

kickerfox wrote:
The AN oil adapter was to eliminate the oil filter neck. I want to run a remote filter, oil thermostat, and oil cooler.


Are these typically necessary for a turbo system, or more for telemetry/piece of mind?

kickerfox wrote:
Don't be so hard on the heads just yet.


Duly noted, thanks. Since I have no idea what I'm doing, I plan to tackle only that which is necessary for reliable power upfront. Ultimately I'd like to tackle more involved modding options when I have a more complete understanding of forced induction.

kickerfox wrote:
Not sure what trans you'll go with but check out this calculator. http://www.teammfactory.com/gear-calculator


Awesome! Thanks.

kickerfox wrote:
Also, if you need the STEP files for the coolant flange, oil flange, or exhaust flange, let me know.


Those would be most appreciated!

kickerfox wrote:
If your serious about doing this build let me know. I'm about to have another pilot spacer made and I'll have a 2nd one made at the same time if your interested.


Hmm.. I feel the need to say - for the record - that I'm not looking to capitalize on all your hard work. I would never ask for the dimensions/specs of any custom-made part that you designed, much less the part itself. For this reason, a large part of me is taut to respectfully decline. That said, a separate part of me recognizes that if I'd managed to dig an otherwise-neglected engine out of its grave in spite of endless criticism & make it scream, I might feel proud to have inspired someone else to use it, and further to be of help. Thus, I would mercifully accept, with the condition that you would allow me to cover the cost of your spacer as well. I haven't quite decided on a transmission, however & I wouldn't want to hold you up.

I understand that you're using the AR-5 to accommodate your car's shifter position, but mating this to the 6VD1 seems to involve quite a bit of tinkering. As a first-timer, I'm inclined to opt for a (simpler) OEM option, however I'm not sure how much power the Isuzu MUA-5 can handle, whereas the AR-5 trans is track-proven to ~800hp. Let's see..

Image

75mph @ 2750 (MUA-5) vs. 2400 (AR-5) w/ 3.91 (for example) FD. The MUA-5's 3rd gear seems a bit asymmetrically placed between 2nd & 4th, as well. :? Also, the AR-5 weighs just 107lb, whereas the MUA-5 weighs damn near 250lb! Hmm..

Isuzu 6VD1 -> Isuzu 2.6L flywheel -> Firebird clutch -> Isuzu 2.6L pressure plate -> Isuzu 6DV1 bellhousing (shaved) -> Solstice/Colorado slave cylinder -> custom pilot spacer -> Miata pilot bearing -> AR-5 trans.

Forgive me for asking you to spell it out, but which parts of this arrangement would be necessary for a scratch-build, and which parts are unique to your project? Maybe it wouldn't be too difficult to use the Solstice transmission after all. Did you have to modify the 2.6L flywheel? What did you end up using for your starter?


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PostPosted: October 4, 2015, 4:07 pm 
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What do you intend on putting this in? That will determine my course of recommendations.

When I was tinkering with the Ford TB, it was because I hadn't yet considered making the RX8 TB work. I assumed then that I would not be retaining the RX8 ECU for any reason. Just out of curiosity I recreated the RX8 ESS waveform in an audio editor then looped the pattern and injected it into the RX8 ESS input. The tach jumped right to 800RPM which was the RPM I calculated the frequency to be. I still had RX8 throttle control even though 90% of the engine's electronics were missing. Only the OMP needed to be connected. Since this worked, I decided to use the RX8 throttle body on the Isuzu engine. I just had to put the RX8 reluctor on the Isuzu pulley. The RX8 ECU won't manage anything but engine idle and maybe fan relays. The cruise and traction control may also work.

I noted a change in part number for the '04 oil pump. They supply more oil to the head in '04. Maybe for VVT or for the GDI system. Whatever the case, I thought -maybe- they increased the volume of the pump. They did not. It's simply a change in placement for the head oil feed. Rather then draw oil from the #1 main, they feed from a separate passage.

The oil lines were added to eliminate the oil filter housing (hangs low and forward on the engine) and to add a remote cooler and filter as well as an oil thermostat to control oil temp.

Here's the magic... The AR-5 is what Isuzu used in the 98+ Trooper. So there is already a bolt-in trans option for you -AND- this engine has 2 different bolt patterns on back. One bolt pattern is Isuzu's own and mates their bellhousing to an AR5, MA5, R154 (Supra), NV3500(Jeep), etc etc etc. It's the large Aisin trans-side bolt pattern so the list goes on and on. The other bolt pattern on the Isuzu block is a GM60. That expands your transmission options 2-fold.

I'm using the MA5 from a Pontiac Solstice due to it's shifter location. It also uses a concentric slave cylinder. That's one reason I converted the clutch to a GM 3800 Camaro setup. I could have changed the front bearing retainer on the MA5 (to the Isuzu AR5 retainer) and could have kept the original Isuzu clutch setup. The Isuzu clutch is a pull-type and I'm not particularly fond of them but in my Amigo it did work quite well. The Amigo throttle response wasn't bad but I bet I shaved 10lbs of rotating mass off the flywheel end of things by going to the Camaro setup.

Here's the list of parts I can remember off the top of my head...

Starting at the engine...
Engine - Modified Isuzu 3.2L v6 '98
Flywheel - Modified Isuzu v6 flywheel '98
Clutch disc - Camaro 3800 v6 '94
Pressure plate - Chevy Camaro 3800 v6 '98
Pilot bearing - Mazda Miata '95 (with adapter)
Slave Cylinder - Chevy Colorado '08
Bell housing - Isuzu Trooper '98 (shortened 0.300" off the engine side and 0.100" off the trans side)
Master cylinder - Jeep CJ5 '83 (with adapter)
Transmission - Pontiac Solstice '06
Trans output flange - Isuzu Rodeo 4x4 rear (modified)
Drive shaft - Isuzu Rodeo 2wd '00 (aluminum 55.75")
Rear yoke - Mazda RX7 (off OEM replacement drive shaft only)

This is for my swap of course. The Isuzu yokes on their AR5 driveline is all common 1310 u joints. I found a solution to couple it to a RX8 differential but you can use any number of differentials using a 1310 u joint on the diff side flange-yoke/pinion-yoke.

This is what the Trooper AR5 bellhousing looks like. It's not that POS 1-piece transmission you think it is. :)


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PostPosted: October 4, 2015, 5:41 pm 
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kickerfox wrote:
What do you intend on putting this in? That will determine my course of recommendations.


A cross between an Ar-i-el Nomad and a Rally Fighter. FE/RWD w/ tubular spaceframe and offroad suspension. I am a former welder & CNC operator, so my experience is limited to CAD & metalworking, if that in any way affects your advice.

kickerfox wrote:
Just out of curiosity I recreated the RX8 ESS waveform in an audio editor then looped the pattern and injected it into the RX8 ESS input. The tach jumped right to 800RPM which was the RPM I calculated the frequency to be.


I saw the video of you playing final countdown! :D Awesome stuff.

kickerfox wrote:
I noted a change in part number for the '04 oil pump. They supply more oil to the head in '04. Maybe for VVT or for the GDI system. Whatever the case, I thought -maybe- they increased the volume of the pump. They did not. It's simply a change in placement for the head oil feed. Rather then draw oil from the #1 main, they feed from a separate passage.


Thanks for the info!

kickerfox wrote:
Here's the magic... The AR-5 is what Isuzu used in the 98+ Trooper. So there is already a bolt-in trans option for you -AND- this engine has 2 different bolt patterns on back. One bolt pattern is Isuzu's own and mates their bellhousing to an AR5, MA5, R154 (Supra), NV3500(Jeep), etc etc etc. It's the large Aisin trans-side bolt pattern so the list goes on and on. The other bolt pattern on the Isuzu block is a GM60. That expands your transmission options 2-fold.

I'm using the MA5 from a Pontiac Solstice due to it's shifter location. It also uses a concentric slave cylinder. That's one reason I converted the clutch to a GM 3800 Camaro setup. I could have changed the front bearing retainer on the MA5 (to the Isuzu AR5 retainer) and could have kept the original Isuzu clutch setup. The Isuzu clutch is a pull-type and I'm not particularly fond of them but in my Amigo it did work quite well. The Amigo throttle response wasn't bad but I bet I shaved 10lbs of rotating mass off the flywheel end of things by going to the Camaro setup.


Ooooh so those are direct bolt-on options! I mean I knew they shared bellhousing patterns, but I figured some finagling was necessary (i.e. custom flywheels, etc.), so I was leaning to the MUA-5 OEM option just to keep the pipe dream under control.

kickerfox wrote:
Flywheel - Modified Isuzu v6 flywheel '98


Oh, I thought you were using a modified Isuzu 2.6L I4 flywheel.

kickerfox wrote:
This is for my swap of course. The Isuzu yokes on their AR5 driveline is all common 1310 u joints. I found a solution to couple it to a RX8 differential but you can use any number of differentials using a 1310 u joint on the diff side flange-yoke/pinion-yoke.


Thanks for the info, once again! I would like to contribute to your project somehow for providing so much info, seriously -- even though I'll likely be using a direct bolt-on transmission option myself, maybe you'll let me cover the cost of your custom pilot spacer in exchange for those STEP files?


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