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PostPosted: September 2, 2017, 8:46 pm 
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When rebuilding an engine should you fill the crankshaft and cam shafts with oil? When the engine is running oil pumps through them to keep everything lubricated. I have had two issue with my engine since I de-stroked it from 2.2 to 2.0L. Firstly with the cams became dry and got all ground up and now the crankshaft did basically the same thing and ate the bearings. I wonder if there was just an air pocket in there that caused metal on metal.

The crankshaft is in good enough shape to reuse it but I don't want the same thing to happen again. My thought was to prime the crank by filling it with oil prior to final assembly. Is this common practice? Any suggestions always appreciated.

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PostPosted: September 2, 2017, 8:49 pm 
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Are you using assembly lube?


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PostPosted: September 2, 2017, 8:50 pm 
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Yes I used Redline assemble lube on everything.

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PostPosted: September 2, 2017, 9:30 pm 
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I've never had any engines that were easy to prelube. Everything has gotten cranked with the plugs removed until there is oil pressure on the gauge then I'll hook up fuel and ignition.

If it happened on the first start then its probably due to lack of oil in the oil galleys. Any time after that, its probably something else.

Are you sure you aren't losing oil pressure in corners?

Regarding your cam issue - did you happen to swap tappets around when you were swapping parts?

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PostPosted: September 2, 2017, 10:08 pm 
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I don't think I swapped any of the tappets around. I am typically diligent about keeping everything in the same place.

The cams failed after 4 events, I had about 25 autocross runs plus idling etc. The crank then failed after about 15 more runs (different cams installed)

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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 8:48 am 
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I build with a moly disulfide assembly lube. Personal preference is Dow Molykote G-N

Cams going that quickly sounds like they were damaged on run in.

Crank seems more like starvation

:?

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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 8:55 am 
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Tough call.That close to a rebuild does sound like it was damaged during initial start-up, what was your initial start procedure?

OTOH, oil starvation in the corners seems just as likely. Any data logs? Did you look at all the rest of the engine for indications of oil starvation? How do the bearings and cylinder walls look?

What's bothersome is you saying "... and now the crank failed." So presumably these were two separate events, separated by how much time? Was the engine rebuilt after the cam failure?

The likelihood of debris in the engine - twice - seems unlikely. I think it was probably oil starvation in the corners the best way to address that is a dry sump system. I know they cost $$$$ but so does repairing engines.

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Last edited by KB58 on September 3, 2017, 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 8:57 am 
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I am looking into Dry sump kits but the only thing that comes up is around $16K. I could buy half a dozen engine for that price.

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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 9:19 am 
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Huh? $16000? Insanity... (I'd have thought that was a typo, adding an extra zero, but you typed it as $16K, so...)

I have a Honda K24 engine in my car and the rough breakdown was $500 for the pan, $800 for the pump, several hundred for the tank, and probably another $2000 for all the fittings and hose, pulleys, and belts. Where'd the other $13000 come from?

[edit] Here you go https://www.drysump.com/index.php/oil-pans/honda/70-honda-s2000-dry-sump-pan-1282

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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 11:03 am 
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Thanks I have sent them an sent them an email. I also found another company in the UK that may do a custom one. They have the K20 one for about 1300 pounds sterling. Hopefully one of them will be able to do something for a reasonable price.

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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 3:00 pm 
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An accusump i.e. accumulator, might be a lower cost option?
And/Or adding gates around the oil pump pick up.
Are other Honda owners having the same issues?
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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 3:26 pm 
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The S2K has roller-followers (right?) which makes it pretty unlikely to be bad break-in procedures. You are probably looking at lack of oil.
Assuming that rebuilding as you are makes sense, I would suggest:

-flushing the hell out of the oil system to make sure you have no contaminants left in the oil galleries etc
-re-assemble using assembly lube or cam-specific assembly lube if supplied
-install engine oil gauge AND dummy light (gauges are too hard to see when in a high G corner)
-prime oil system by disabling injectors and cranking until oil pressure builds up to spec. You may also want to do this with the cam cover off so you can see oil coming through all off the rockers,cam etc.
-change oil filter again before starting if you haven't had the block fully cleaned.

Assuming all goes well it's then time to take it to autoX and watch your gauge and light.

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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 3:46 pm 
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C10CoryM wrote:
-install engine oil gauge AND dummy light (gauges are too hard to see when in a high G corner)


Along these lines, mount the oil pressure gauge somewhere that it can easily be viewed in GoPro videos. You can review video and see if you lost oil pressure at any point should a failure occur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vWKxuL8158

I also have an oil pressure switch triggering a relay to power the fuel pump. The pump won't start until there is oil pressure and if I have a complete loss it'll cut fuel. There is a switch on the dash to bypass the switch and have the pump constantly running should the need ever arise.

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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 4:31 pm 
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Cam lobes failed or just the journals? Did you replace the cam bearings? Maybe one spun? Did you prime the oil pump after rebuild?

Did you pull all the oil gallery plugs, rod them out good and clean and install new ones? You may have an oil gallery clogged or at least delivering less than designed oil to critical areas.

My rotary engine had a switch that activated an audible alarm when the oil pressure went below some set point. I noticed it a few times but never killed an engine because of it. Oil pressure switches come in normally open and normally closed versions. One normally closed set at "x" psi to activate an alarm and one normally open set a few # below that to deactivate the fuel pump or ignition as suggested might be a wise upgrade. In either way, Id have the audible alarm otherwise it might just feel like an engine stutter and make you lok for performance problems elsewhere.

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PostPosted: September 3, 2017, 11:23 pm 
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I did not prime the oil pump after the initial rebuild but did after changing the cams. After replacing the cams they all seem to be oiling correctly.

I took the engine completely apart today and got the hose out to completely clean the block and removed the oil galley plugs and gave them a good clean. I will also clean and inspect everything prior to reassembly. I am pricing out various things but it gets expensive fast, $800 for pistons, $800 for connecting rods $150 for bearings, Dry sump $$$$.....I wish I had a sponsor to cover the cost of everything.

I am hoping one of the companies comes through with an affordable dry sump kit which should prevent future oiling issues as well as a few other benefits.

I have ordered replacement Rod and crankshaft bearings. There is a little scoring on the crank so I will take it to the local Machine shop and get them to check it out. While I am there I am going to ask about lightening the crank too, it seems you can remove about 5lbs off it and knife edge it. I plan to redline the engine at around 9500rpm so I need to make sure everything is right.

I think it is time to get some gauges. I really need engine temp and oil pressure. I like the idea of a warning light or loud buzzer maybe a strobe light. I bet I could wire something right into the ECU. I actually have an accusump that I removed as it was giving me VTec issues. I spoke to a few guys and they don't like them so it is on my shelf I should sell it really. I also made a baffle pan and wonder is that could be part of the issue as the stock pan worked fine but I would lose a little oil out of the breather vent.

Thanks for the write up Cory I'll use it when I put her back together.

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