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PostPosted: July 8, 2018, 9:32 pm 
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It's surprising how some still defend swapping from EFI to carbs. What they forget are all the downsides which are glossed over in the "but it's simpler" belief system. When's the last time you drove a carbureted car?
1. Remember vapor lock, sitting in traffic and having the fuel boil, solved only by pulling off and waiting for it to cool?
2. Remember how cold-starts were an iffy smelly situation, made worse if the choke wasn't working right?
3. Remember flooding?
4. Remember having no idea what the mixture was, and no idea where to get parts or which ones to order even if you did?
5. Remember when carburetors, the manifold, and tuning, cost less than an EFI setup?
6. Remember when you and your clothes reeked of gasoline, even when the car was running right?
7. Remember shutting off the car and having it diesel for 5-20 seconds?
8. Remember driving up mountains and the car struggling more and more as it slowly drowned itself in the richening mixture?
9. Remember having a float get a hole in it and how long that took to diagnose?
10. Remember disassembling the carburetor to clean it and shooting a stainless steel check valve at Mach 7 into the dark corner of your garage?

No? I do.

Go ahead, knock yourself out, I guess you'll be the one laughing in TEOTWAWKI - bonus points if you know what that is, though you'll be outing yourself if you do, bunker, beans, bullets, and all.

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Last edited by KB58 on July 8, 2018, 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: July 8, 2018, 9:57 pm 
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Being a basic dummy, the hardest thing I ever had to diagnose was a crappy running engine due to a carb float that wouldn't float.

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PostPosted: July 8, 2018, 10:48 pm 
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KB58 wrote:
It's surprising how some still defend swapping from EFI to carbs. What they forget are all the downsides which are glossed over in the "but it's simpler" belief system. When's the last time you drove a carbureted car?
1. Remember vapor lock, sitting in traffic and having the fuel boil, solved only by pulling off and waiting for it to cool?
2. Remember how cold-starts were an iffy smelly situation, made worse if the choke wasn't working right?
3. Remember flooding?
4. Remember having no idea what the mixture was, and no idea where to get parts or which ones to order even if you did?
5. Remember when carburetors, the manifold, and tuning, cost less than an EFI setup?
6. Remember when you and your clothes reeked of gasoline, even when the car was running right?
7. Remember shutting off the car and having it diesel for 5-20 seconds?
8. Remember driving up mountains and the car struggling more and more as it slowly drowned itself in the richening mixture?
9. Remember having a float get a hold in it and how long that took to diagnose?
10. Remember disassembling the carburetor to clean it and shooting a stainless steel check valve at Mach 7 into the dark corner of your garage?

No? I do.

Go ahead, knock yourself out, I guess you'll be the one laughing in TEOTWAWKI - bonus points if you know what that is, though you'll be outing yourself if you do, bunker, beans, bullets, and all.


Guess I have not posted here enough yet, you still don't know me! :lol:
I'm the guy that drives almost exclusively carb fed cars!
Trying to rid of almost everything made after the advent of computers in cars.
Gave the Miata to my mother, PS, PB, and AC in a "Sports Car"? :roll:
Last instance of vapor lock was over twenty years ago when I was forced to buy Alky-gas in Iowa, route the lines correctly and it's not an issue.
My 350 Chevy with quadra-jet and electric choke starts fine even in winter.
Webers have a cold start circuit too, might have to pump the accelerator a bit but they start fine.
Flooding is the result of not running a fuel filter, or a damaged float, not an issue that comes up for me.
Carb mixture is easy to adjust, even on SU's, Colortune is a neat analog tool.
Carbs still cost less than EFI, often a LOT less.
ECU, injectors x ?, MAF and other sensors, NOT going to be cheaper than a carb and manifold unless you need IDA-3's.
Nope, don't notice any gasoline reek unless I've had to depressurize an FI system.
Diesling cars, maybe a very long time ago when KNOX systems were in use (They screwed up the timing), or the owner failed to keep the car in tune.
Slower and slower as the mixture gets richer?
Sure, that's why Webers are great, you can change jets in a minute at the side of the road!
And despite claims to the contrary unless you have a turbo altitude does still affect injected cars, been there and noticed the reality.
Holed floats have never been hard to diagnose, leads to over rich mixtures and eventually flooding.
I've never ejected a carb part when rebuilding.

Sounds like your carb experience must be with old VW bugs and their crappy Solex's. :lol:

Seems the spirits of Triumph and Lucas are already punishing me for my blasphemous thoughts, lifted the GT6 bonnet for an engine pic and got swarmed by wasp.
Right hand is now pretty swollen and nearly useless.
If the GT6 does not sell I may indeed just warm up the stock engine, compression, cam, headers, Webers.
Maybe swap in modified GT6+ rear suspension.
Had GT6's in the past, really plenty of power for civilized driving and so much better looking than ANY of the new insectoid production.

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PostPosted: July 9, 2018, 12:54 am 
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The VR6 seems to be the way to go, but if you want the s80Z engine I have one with trans I'm not going to use. They also make good boat anchors. Well actually they are better boat anchors than engines.

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PostPosted: July 9, 2018, 5:42 am 
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I say build what moves you! I did a Corvette Crossfire Injection on a '79GMC pickup way back in '89 when you were pretty much on your own. Why? Because it was different, and a lot of people said it won't work. worked great. Same with the '33 Vicky and the LoCost I'm doing now.
I could have stuck a stick axle and MII front end under Vicky, and had another "Me Too" Street Rod (and been done with the chassis by now), But I want something that handles like it is a sports car, in the vain of Factory Five. So I built a custom chassis, Custom geometry using MII components, and a custom double wishbone IRS. Same with the LoCost. Wanted something like a Cobra, but didn't want to see myself coming and going at the car events. So, C4 Corvette drivetrain was the choice, LoCost chassis is the build.
As for some of the problems brought up about carbs, I had a 280Z 2+2 with the Bosch K Jetronic FI that routinely vapor locked . And I recall about a metric sh*t ton of GM vehicles recalled for the same.
I'll say this, if you DON'T do the carbs you will kick yourself down the road if that is what you really wanted. As you stated earlier, all of the problems can be solved once identified.
Build what moves you, it's the whole point of doing it!

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PostPosted: July 9, 2018, 2:32 pm 
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Responses follow KB58’s comments with an asterick*.

It's surprising how some still defend swapping from EFI to carbs. What they forget are all the downsides which are glossed over in the "but it's simpler" belief system. When's the last time you drove a carbureted car?
*Not surprising, they are less complicated, and I have a few carbureted vehicles that I drive regularly; a ranger 5.0L with a Holley, a fiero 4.3L with an Edelbrock/Carter, and a D150 with a Carter. If the battery is charged they start, even with old fuel. EFI injectors tend to gum up and stick closed.

1. Remember vapor lock, sitting in traffic and having the fuel boil, solved only by pulling off and waiting for it to cool?
*Yes, but it was my fault. I’d left the tins and seal out of the engine bay on the 63 bug and didn’t know any better at 16. These isolate the heat from the air cooling and exhaust from the carb.
2. Remember how cold-starts were an iffy smelly situation, made worse if the choke wasn't working right?
* Yes, but after the experience, I always proactively adjust if adjustable, convert to a manual choke with a $5 cable, or use a 5 cent paper clip to pin it open and prime as necessary.
3. Remember flooding?
*See answers above. EFI systems can fail to operate for a number of reasons where even a limp home mode(if so equipped) or fuel throttle fuel cut to clear a flood doesn’t save you. Sensor values change with use and age. Intakes gum up with blowby (carb intakes are constantly washed clean) affecting IAC and pressure sensors, and what if you ECU gets wet or has a failed discrete component?
4. Remember having no idea what the mixture was, and no idea where to get parts or which ones to order even if you did?
*Nope. Most carbs are very close out of the box for metering so much fuel to so much air. When I buy used carbs, the first thing I do is check for drilled air bleeds and swapped parts. If you need a little more fuel, this can be done with a drill bit, float level adjustment, linkage adjustment, or new parts depending on what the issue is. Parts are easy to look up.
5. Remember when carburetors, the manifold, and tuning, cost less than an EFI setup?
*They still are when a replacement used but tested ECU costs $300, not to mention some sensors that are no longer available new and used is a crap shoot.
6. Remember when you and your clothes reeked of gasoline, even when the car was running right?
*if it were running right, why would you reek? Having a carb does not mean there is no evap system but either way, if it is setup properly, there is no smell unless you sniff the open bowl vent (though an open vent is not a given).
7. Remember shutting off the car and having it diesel for 5-20 seconds?
*That is usually a timing adjustment or an inoperative electrical device, the anti-diesel solenoid. Most carbs do not need or come with the sol.
8. Remember driving up mountains and the car struggling more and more as it slowly drowned itself in the richening mixture?
*There are no mountains here that are high enough to make it an issue, but there are carbs that adjust for altitude with electronics or pneumatics, not counting common aircraft carbs.
9. Remember having a float get a hole in it and how long that took to diagnose?
*You got me. I’ve never had a float sink but I have had debris stick in the needle valve (again, my fault). The bowl overflows.
10. Remember disassembling the carburetor to clean it and shooting a stainless steel check valve at Mach 7 into the dark corner of your garage?
*You got me again, so now those things will happen to me. Thanks a lot.


No? I do.

Go ahead, knock yourself out, I guess you'll be the one laughing in TEOTWAWKI - bonus points if you know what that is, though you'll be outing yourself if you do, bunker, beans, bullets, and all.
*I had to look that one up. A survivalist would have a diesel with a manual fuel cut.
*You’ve obviously had some bad experiences with carbs, but being hobbled with CA smog equipment, it isn’t surprising.

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PostPosted: July 9, 2018, 2:54 pm 
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I have had the 'sinking' float experience twice. The first was on a 1956 Buick. That one was easy to spot amdfix. Took the top off the carb and the brass tank type float started draining from it's pin hole leak. The second was much more puzzling. A 1974 Merc Capri with the Cologne 2.8 V6. Took the carb apart three times installing a rebuild kit each time to no avail. This float was foam, no visible damage but on the last tear down I dropped it into a cup of gas and it went right to the bottom. Problem solved.

In my Locost I'm using a Toyota 20V w/EFI. Definitely a learning curve. but once you get it right it stays
right.

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PostPosted: July 9, 2018, 3:10 pm 
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Quote:
TEOTWAWKI


Forgot to answer that.
For me we are already there!
The free world as I knew it ended when Gov. Org. took control of automotive design. :(
Fuel Infection is now mandatory to meet standards that have no constitutional basis to exist.
That anyone assumes I don't drive on carbs tells me how far our freedom has diminished.
There are several more factors that I see as TEOTWAWKI already being here but that gets to be a very political discussion.
I tend to feel sorry for the younger generation who never got to enjoy pre-Gov. Org. designed cars. :ack:

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PostPosted: July 10, 2018, 8:44 am 
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Don't forget the GM Vortec 4200 Atlas motor. Often overlooked, great motor good gearbox availability and cheap to get from breakers yards because everyone wants the V8's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_M ... las_engine

Graham


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PostPosted: July 10, 2018, 10:06 am 
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Hmmmm. 'muricin straight six with a carb and disty? How about old school Plymouth slant six. There were reportedly ~ 50K aluminum block engines built back around '61 or so. With some work I've read it can go 6-6.5k rpm.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/slant-s ... slant-six/

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PostPosted: July 10, 2018, 10:38 am 
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First thoughts are if you want an inline six, they're typically heavy.

1.) Nissan RB engines are pretty compact for a six due to their small bore spacing and short deck height.
2.) Toyota (Lexus) 2JZ are plentiful. Several options for manuals behind them. Came NA and turbo.
3.) BMW inline 6's...basically comes down to your budget.

Not switching paths:
Inline fives might be an option
4.) Volvo inline 5
5.) VW and Auid both have inline fives, both NA and turbo

Switching to a more power dense 4-cyl, and you'll realize the list is LONG. SR20DET, 4G63, newer Ecoboosts might be cool due to their compact and lightweight nature, etc...

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PostPosted: July 10, 2018, 3:34 pm 
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RichardSIA wrote:
Triumph GT6


There used to be a guy with a Spitfire who showed up at local autocrosses. He had one of the big Toyota Supra DOHC sixes in it. Those engines are HUGE; he had a big hole cut in the hood with the engine sticking out...

The big problem isn't the engine, but the transmission - there aren't too many modern boxes that will fit without frame hackery and molding a new transmission cover out of papier-mache and fiberglass, like we did when I was in high school...


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PostPosted: July 10, 2018, 3:43 pm 
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Ford made a number of pushrod inline sixes. Of the small series, there was the 144, 170, 200, and 250. The deck height varied; the 250 was 9.4", but the 200 was only 7.8", and I'm pretty sure the 144 was that much shorter again; it only had 4.8" rods!

They're not powerful engines, mostly limited by the hideous cast-in intake manifold, but they're lighter than they look, and the 144 and 170 were available with the British-made Dagenham four speed, which is a lot smaller than a Top Loader or T5.

Downsides: high carburetor, front sump oil pan. (though side draft conversions used to be common enough; some were even DIY!)


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