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PostPosted: October 22, 2014, 7:41 pm 
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Initally, does this look correct? Where should the other (upper) pole on the disconnect go to? Attached the stock starting circuit for reference.


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PostPosted: October 22, 2014, 8:09 pm 
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Depends on the switch you are using. There needs to be a way to prevent damage to the alternator unless it predates efi and also stop the alternator from supplying power to the ignition system. Do both contacts open and close together or do they do the opposite of each other (i.e. NO versus NC)?

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PostPosted: October 23, 2014, 10:16 am 
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One thing comes to mind. If you are not going to use a clutch switch and/or a neutral switch for the starter circuit, you can just eliminate the "Starter cut relay". Wire directly from the PB Relay to the starter solenoid, providing the starter solenoid holding current is within the inductive rating of the push button relay. Or just wire the starter switch to the coil terminal of the starter cut relay and eliminate the push button relay. Either way would work and "simplify"

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PostPosted: October 27, 2014, 5:09 pm 
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ok so i took some of your suggestions and redrew the diagram. Does the ecu need a relay? Should it be wired to the 12v constant?


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PostPosted: October 27, 2014, 5:17 pm 
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Typically the ECU is low amp's and will not need a relay. You just need to run the constant current connection thru a low amp in-line fuse or connect thru your fuse box. {check your donor spec's for the fuse rating} Dave W


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PostPosted: October 27, 2014, 6:54 pm 
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There is a great deal wrong with the schematic. Connections are wrong on a few relays (the fan would never come on but that's good since it would likely damage the ecu if it did), wires are way too thick. The starter relay is often called the solenoid and is usually built into the starter. Looks like you have a relay for a single standard horn.

Start with the schematics for the donor.

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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: October 28, 2014, 9:58 am 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
There is a great deal wrong with the schematic. Connections are wrong on a few relays (the fan would never come on but that's good since it would likely damage the ecu if it did), wires are way too thick. The starter relay is often called the solenoid and is usually built into the starter. Looks like you have a relay for a single standard horn.

Start with the schematics for the donor.


Of course I have started with the 40 pgs of donor schematics.
The fan isnt triggered by the ECU, the ecu just wants to know that the fan is on. I modified this since it think i messed it up when i copied and pasted it.
The stock harness is almost entirely 18ga and the rest of the sizes were either pulled from the stock size, research, or adjusted because of the fact that the battery is now in the front of the car instead of right next to the engine.
one horn for now.

I will work on adding the lighting stuff now....

Anything else you see right off that looks wrong?

Also are you guys running Clutch switches?


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PostPosted: October 28, 2014, 5:41 pm 
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I doubt your start button needs a separate relay to the starter. Most starters have a relay built in. The wire to the starter relay needs to be no thicker than 16ga.

There should be no fuses between the battery + and the starter heavy lug connection. Starters typically pull up to 200 amps initially so the 40 amp fuse will blow the first time you engage it. Use the starter heavy lug for a power distribution point.

Don't know what a "power distribution constant" is.

Most ecms, ecus, etc apply or receive a ground from or to relays, not + but it looks like you corrected that

Don't know what model and year you are basing this on.

Don't forget a ground strap to the chassis.

I think most are not running clutch switches to prevent starter engagement in gear.

There is usually two methods to engage the fuel pump.

It is nice to have a toggle to control the cooling fan relay.

Appears you are using toggles to control acc, run/on, and a start momentary. Many oem ignition switches isolate most of the run/on circuits to reduce the voltage drop to critical bits that are required to get it started. The symptoms are the battery is a little low and it won't fire but the starter is engaging fine. May not be a big deal for you.

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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: October 28, 2014, 8:26 pm 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
I doubt your start button needs a separate relay to the starter. Most starters have a relay built in. The wire to the starter relay needs to be no thicker than 16ga.

There should be no fuses between the battery + and the starter heavy lug connection. Starters typically pull up to 200 amps initially so the 40 amp fuse will blow the first time you engage it. Use the starter heavy lug for a power distribution point.

Don't know what a "power distribution constant" is.

Most ecms, ecus, etc apply or receive a ground from or to relays, not + but it looks like you corrected that

Don't know what model and year you are basing this on.

Don't forget a ground strap to the chassis.

I think most are not running clutch switches to prevent starter engagement in gear.

There is usually two methods to engage the fuel pump.

It is nice to have a toggle to control the cooling fan relay.

Appears you are using toggles to control acc, run/on, and a start momentary. Many oem ignition switches isolate most of the run/on circuits to reduce the voltage drop to critical bits that are required to get it started. The symptoms are the battery is a little low and it won't fire but the starter is engaging fine. May not be a big deal for you.


Yeah looking at the back of the switch now, it has some pretty big contacts so i may eliminate the relay

Right now the stock starter wire is 12awg so i bumped it up to 10ga since it is traveling further. Alt to starter is 10awg.

If you look at the first post you will see an 80a and 50a just before the starter. I just followed that.

Power distribution constant is power at all times vs controlled by the acc switch.

This is all from a 92-95 civic but that are almost all the same from 92-2000.

You mean they do use clutch switches to prevent starter engagement?

Race cars have two methods to start the fuel pump? How so?

A switch to override the ecu and active the fan?


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PostPosted: October 28, 2014, 10:07 pm 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
there should be no fuses between the battery + and the starter heavy lug connection. Starters typically pull up to 200 amps initially so the 40 amp fuse will blow the first time you engage it. Use the starter heavy lug for a power distribution point.


I located ANOTHER wiring diagram that sorts this out so i will redraw and post in the morning.

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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 12:49 pm 
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Ok so i think i got it

but as before...Race cars have two methods to start the fuel pump? How so?


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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 5:29 pm 
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How so?!?! :shock: Typically, the ecm supplies a ground to the fuel pump relay for only a few seconds, then an oil pressure switch or air flow sensor switch provides the ground until the engine is shut off or dies. I think Honda does the same thing except they use values that sense the engine is running to keep the pump going but uses a single wire for starting and running. Why do you keep talking about race cars?

Your schematics are getting better but I don't know why you have 10ga on one side the fuel pump and 16 ga on the other. Positive and negative are equally important. The power switch should control a relay unless you want to use a super heavy duty toggle rated at 40 plus amps that still won't last very long. DC is very hard on switches compared to AC. Similarly, the starter relay pin 87 should jumper off before the momentary. The momentary will last much longer for little effort. That is all I see at the moment but I'm also not comparing your drawing to anything.

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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: October 29, 2014, 7:43 pm 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
How so?!?! :shock: Typically, the ecm supplies a ground to the fuel pump relay for only a few seconds, then an oil pressure switch or air flow sensor switch provides the ground until the engine is shut off or dies. I think Honda does the same thing except they use values that sense the engine is running to keep the pump going but uses a single wire for starting and running. Why do you keep talking about race cars?

Your schematics are getting better but I don't know why you have 10ga on one side the fuel pump and 16 ga on the other. Positive and negative are equally important. The power switch should control a relay unless you want to use a super heavy duty toggle rated at 40 plus amps that still won't last very long. DC is very hard on switches compared to AC. Similarly, the starter relay pin 87 should jumper off before the momentary. The momentary will last much longer for little effort. That is all I see at the moment but I'm also not comparing your drawing to anything.


I thought you were refering to some type of priming switch or something. I attached the wiring portion of the dizgram for the stock pump. I wanted to intergrate a fuel kill switch so i thought that location was the most logical but maybe it should go between the ecu and relay. ?

The 10ga was an error.

Yes the 87 pin should come before the momentary. I will change that.

Thanks for your help


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PostPosted: October 30, 2014, 5:31 am 
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Glad to assist.

I'd use the toggle on the low current side of the fuel pump relay, interrupting either the ecu ground or 87s feed to 86.
Fuel pump circuit fuses are typically 15 amps.

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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: October 30, 2014, 4:29 pm 
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Updated


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