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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 8, 2017, 2:07 pm 
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wrightcomputing wrote:
No I have a usb connected into the ECU and that is just shoved beside the transmission, I pull it out and connect it to my tablet which sits on the steering wheel. You could easily make it look nice with a USB extension or similar.

One of these. For the whole harness


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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 8, 2017, 3:36 pm 
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I sent an Email to a Miata expert online. He races these things. Also has a 7. He said a bare bones set up is MAF, Temp sensors, egr, TPS, cam angle and O2. He said the 93-94 computers don't monitor the CAT so just one O2 is needed. I can't believe he got back to me on a Saturday. He said he deleted his idle air on his 7 and it was a pain. Put it back in. So I'll do that. This happened pretty quick.

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 8, 2017, 10:13 pm 
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Unless you are an experienced MS'er I would not take the MAF plunge.

You can run it very well with speed density strategy using a MAP sensor.

You can get a MSPNP that will plug into a OEM harness.

A MS2 will provide the best feature set providing both sequential injection and coil on plug spark.
This is what I would do if it was my car. MS2 and a crank trigger.
I won a championship with my first one, dead reliable and simple to use.
It solved all of the problems I had with the OEM ECU.
Crank triggered and distributorless ignition (wasted spark & batch fired injectors).
No expensive software and the hardware was cheap as i built mine from a kit.
Also a great online support community.

I later switched to a MS3 only so I could record my races on the internal SD chip

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 8, 2017, 11:15 pm 
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Bent Wrench wrote:
Unless you are an experienced MS'er I would not take the MAF plunge.

You can run it very well with speed density strategy using a MAP sensor.

You can get a MSPNP that will plug into a OEM harness.

A MS2 will provide the best feature set providing both sequential injection and coil on plug spark.
This is what I would do if it was my car. MS2 and a crank trigger.
I won a championship with my first one, dead reliable and simple to use.
It solved all of the problems I had with the OEM ECU.
Crank triggered and distributorless ignition (wasted spark & batch fired injectors).
No expensive software and the hardware was cheap as i built mine from a kit.
Also a great online support community.

I later switched to a MS3 only so I could record my races on the internal SD chip

So the MS2 has room to grow is what your saying. I don't have the crank trigger and coil on plug. i actually have the Ford distributor on the CAS. This was a Ford engine Ive adapted to RWD. Ford coil, but Skunk2 throttle body on Mazda intake. I had to look up the MAP that looks simple enough over the MAF. I know MAF can get finicky in distance from TB on its readings.

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 9, 2017, 8:11 am 
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No crank trigger, how does the computer monitor piston location? Some sort of trigger is required for the injectors, even when using a dizzy.

If you decide to go with MS, I see no reason to mess with OEM harnesses. You will find a boatload of irrelevant wiring and that mating the OEM wires to the MS is not "automatic". Buy a MS kit with long wires and wire the engine from scratch. No big deal with the engine your using. I used OEM harness with my 2.5 Fusion Duratec (it was on the engine), but it did not follow the MS convention, so it had had to be reconfigured. Nothing gained except more splices.

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 9, 2017, 8:48 am 
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BBlue wrote:
No crank trigger, how does the computer monitor piston location? Some sort of trigger is required for the injectors, even when using a dizzy.

If you decide to go with MS, I see no reason to mess with OEM harnesses. You will find a boatload of irrelevant wiring and that mating the OEM wires to the MS is not "automatic". Buy a MS kit with long wires and wire the engine from scratch. No big deal with the engine your using. I used OEM harness with my 2.5 Fusion Duratec (it was on the engine), but it did not follow the MS convention, so it had had to be reconfigured. Nothing gained except more splices.

Bill

The only thing I can think off is its all done through the Cam positioner . It was a complete engine and there wasn't a crank trigger on it. Since you've done this do you think I have to change out my Cam positioner that has the distributor mated to it for the Mazda Cam positioner and change the ford coil to the Mazda one. If I am headed for problems I guess I'll have to ditch it and buy new. Making a harness from scratch makes a lot of sense. I read 3 horror stories last night of guys wishing they would have done that on 7 installs alone. It really should be a easy install.
I was reading on the assembled version of MS2 v3 that the board needs updates for this car to operate properly?

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 9, 2017, 10:24 am 
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CAS distributor has toothed wheel in it and may also have a second sensor for cam position.

A distributor is a compromise but can be made to work.

First compromise is a single coil firing 24,000 times a minute at 6000 rpm.
Wasted spark cuts that in half, coil on plug cuts that by 4.
Reducing the coil duty allows more dwell time which delivers a better spark.

Second is all distributors wobble and that error limits how close you can get to kill when tuning.
The object of this exercise is to make each cylinder do the same amount of work right on the edge of detonation to achieve maximum efficiency.

Third is a distributor with a low tooth count (like 1 tooth per cylinder) does not give the computer enough data points to accurately predict the motor position.

Note you can use some distributors as a sensor only and still use a coil on plug or wasted spark output. There are CAS units made that do not have a distributor cap.

Ideally a 36-1 tooth crank sensor is best, or one of the pattern wheels based on 36 teeth.
Higher tooth count wheels cause trouble at high rpm because the frequency gets too high.

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 9, 2017, 11:10 am 
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Bent Wrench wrote:
CAS distributor has toothed wheel in it and may also have a second sensor for cam position.

A distributor is a compromise but can be made to work.

First compromise is a single coil firing 24,000 times a minute at 6000 rpm.
Wasted spark cuts that in half, coil on plug cuts that by 4.
Reducing the coil duty allows more dwell time which delivers a better spark.

Second is all distributors wobble and that error limits how close you can get to kill when tuning.
The object of this exercise is to make each cylinder do the same amount of work right on the edge of detonation to achieve maximum efficiency.

Third is a distributor with a low tooth count (like 1 tooth per cylinder) does not give the computer enough data points to accurately predict the motor position.


Note you can use some distributors as a sensor only and still use a coil on plug or wasted spark output. There are CAS units made that do not have a distributor cap.

Ideally a 36-1 tooth crank sensor is best, or one of the pattern wheels based on 36 teeth.
Higher tooth count wheels cause trouble at high rpm because the frequency gets too high.

Ok. I can understand that. Thanks for laying it out in plane English. How do you mount the trigger pick up? I've seen the set up on a regular Miata block. I don't have that mounting location on mine. I'll look again. I am surprise because the blocks are darn near identical. How economical can I do a coil on plug set up do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 9, 2017, 12:21 pm 
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Both the MSII and the MS3 are very versatile. Virtually every engine has been MS'd. You will probably find more specific answers to your installation and the tradeoff choices over on msextra.com or any other make-specific site. Just Google the year and model of your engine and add Megasquirt. Not that we can't give general advice.

IMO, waste spark is just as good as COP for a street car. My rotary ran waste spark on the leading plugs at 9K RPM and above. it is more a function of the coil used than the concept of waste spark itself. And if the CAS is anything like my rotary was, you have choices there too. I chose to delete 2 teeth from the 24 tooth sensor. The rotary ran just fine. In your application if the Cam sensor has many teeth, you delete 2 teeth and run waste spark, the system doesn't need to know the crank position. it fires on the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke.

To tune it right, you'll need a wide band sensor in addition to the MS. This adds another $150-200 to your "system". You can do your tuning then run a closed loop system ( I never got around to doing that) if you'd like.

Definitely run a closed loop for idle IMO. you don't activate that part in the MS until you have the main tuning set.

The thing with the MSII is that you can modify it to suit your installation. you can send a signal to the coil amplifier, or you can drive the coil direct from the MS, your choice. You can even run an EDIS ignition system from it or COP. It is what you want to do. It has a single VR sensor input for the CAS built in the main board. If you choose to add a 2nd VR circuit, you can either buy a PCB accessory circuit or install one in the breadboard area. I found that there was considerable crosstalk between the signals. That is when I deleted the 2 teeth and the 2nd sensor in the CAS. It never gave me a problem after that.

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 9, 2017, 2:19 pm 
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rx7locost wrote:
Both the MSII and the MS3 are very versatile. Virtually every engine has been MS'd. You will probably find more specific answers to your installation and the tradeoff choices over on msextra.com or any other make-specific site. Just Google the year and model of your engine and add Megasquirt. Not that we can't give general advice.

IMO, waste spark is just as good as COP for a street car. My rotary ran waste spark on the leading plugs at 9K RPM and above. it is more a function of the coil used than the concept of waste spark itself. And if the CAS is anything like my rotary was, you have choices there too. I chose to delete 2 teeth from the 24 tooth sensor. The rotary ran just fine. In your application if the Cam sensor has many teeth, you delete 2 teeth and run waste spark, the system doesn't need to know the crank position. it fires on the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke.

To tune it right, you'll need a wide band sensor in addition to the MS. This adds another $150-200 to your "system". You can do your tuning then run a closed loop system ( I never got around to doing that) if you'd like.

Definitely run a closed loop for idle IMO. you don't activate that part in the MS until you have the main tuning set.

The thing with the MSII is that you can modify it to suit your installation. you can send a signal to the coil amplifier, or you can drive the coil direct from the MS, your choice. You can even run an EDIS ignition system from it or COP. It is what you want to do. It has a single VR sensor input for the CAS built in the main board. If you choose to add a 2nd VR circuit, you can either buy a PCB accessory circuit or install one in the breadboard area. I found that there was considerable crosstalk between the signals. That is when I deleted the 2 teeth and the 2nd sensor in the CAS. It never gave me a problem after that.

If I can't understand most of this am I in over my head?. Some of it i get. Does it get easier as you go through it?. Ive seen Wide band but i thought they were just for turbo applications?.

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 9, 2017, 2:27 pm 
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With the right sensor I may have a spot for the trigger pick up. An open 10mm


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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 9, 2017, 2:47 pm 
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Steve, if you don't understand AND you want to learn, MS is a great pathway. That is why I went there. I do have a background in electronics so it was not intimidating to me. I can see how it might be different for someone starting from scratch. Understanding, then deciding, then implementing the circuit work will be first. Then there is the tuning part. I won't fool you, there will be obstacles to overcome, as in anything that is new. It is a new subject with its own new terminology and it all sounds Greek at first. If you are willing to do all that, great. Hopefully, you might have someone nearby that can lead you astray. No, I mean lead you along and tutor you. :mrgreen:

One of the great things about the MSII is that it is very flexible. One of the difficult things about the MSII is that it is very flexible.

I know nothing about any of the PnP or microsquirt products. Perhaps one of them might mitigate some of the issues.

If you haven't already, I recommend you read our forum on Megasquirt to start with? http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12117

If you are more into wanting to jump in the car and drive, I'd say stick with your OEM system and check out some forums specifically for your engine to see what you will need and how to trick the ECM for the rest of the sensors/handshaking. Every bit of info helps. Tuning effort for a MS system can easily be underestimated IMO.

Whichever way you decide to go, just be sure you know why you are going there. Write it down. there will be times that you may have to re-read that. :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 9, 2017, 3:29 pm 
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Thanks Chuck all good wisdom here. Making the COP upgrades from Bent Wrench I get it, I really do. But right now the money has to be spent to drive the project to ignition. I didn't cut any corners on the engine build so I guess this is where that sacrifice surfaces. That can be an upgrade down the road. I did some searching for the kits Their around $300. The trigger wheel I did find is in this distributor so thats all good. I cannot find a pig tail for this coil. Its driving me nuts. can't find a wire harness. I did find this coil has an ignition module that fires it. So thats 2 pigtails left to get. I am going to send this info to DIY and see if they have words of wisdom. They sell coils and a pile of different connectors so maybe its just matter of changing out a couple parts.
This Info gathering has given me more confidence to go further with it. With the couple items i have mixed and matched I pretty much have to build my own. No biggie i made it this far in the build not really knowing what I am doing so on we go learning more and more. Thanks for all the input. :cheers: I am going to spend some time reading these other threads.

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 11, 2017, 11:32 pm 
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I got a lot of feedback from DIYAUTOTUNE today. The best option is the Microsquit with some GM sensors. The MAP, closed element IAT, open element IAT, Wide band controller and sensor. the whole package is $650. They said if you unscrew the box and split it lay a silicone bead in the joint its waterproof. Thats good because I can screw it to the firewall then.

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 Post subject: Re: OEM vs Megasquirt
PostPosted: July 12, 2017, 5:52 am 
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Tundra 7 wrote:
I got a lot of feedback from DIYAUTOTUNE today. The best option is the Microsquit with some GM sensors. The MAP, closed element IAT, open element IAT, Wide band controller and sensor. the whole package is $650. They said if you unscrew the box and split it lay a silicone bead in the joint its waterproof. Thats good because I can screw it to the firewall then.


And this is why I love megasquirt: DIY autotune says "if you unscrew the box you can make it waterproof" vs AEM, Motec, Haltec, etc "If you unscrew the box we'll never speak to you again." :lol:

I have a megasquirt on my SR20 volvo swap and it is great! echo all the other comments, easy to tune, etc. If you download the MSDroid app to your cell phone it will log your data with a GPS track and overlay it on google maps so you can remember exactly what intersection some idle stumble, etc. happened and find it in data. Just one of many cool things from the megasquirt community.

Alex


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