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PostPosted: April 19, 2019, 9:07 pm 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
True! We got those from Q4R, too, to join our Ford T-5 (World-class, non-V8 version) transmissions to our Zetec engines.

The bellhousings are a thing of beauty - the CNC machining is first class, and they join to the block with a smooth 'click', and zero play. They were NOT cheap, though, by any stretch of the imagination, and they continued to rise in cost after we bought ours roughly 10 years ago.

They're so nice it's almost a shame to hide them under the car.... :roll:

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PostPosted: April 20, 2019, 12:55 am 
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I agree, Ehrlich’s secret is his design of the movable reluctor plate in order to get an extra 10 degrees or so of advance loaded in. I am hoping to compare a stock GM OBD1 ignition curve with the one that Ehrlich sold.. The proof will be in the pudding.
For some more info on these stand-alone GM DIS systems, my Snap-on oscilloscope manual provides some great information.
The reference point on this discussion is the image of the reluctor wheel or on WelderLee’s Apr 18 post.
Here are some interesting points
- Plugs fire at TDC and BDC – When #1 fires at TDC on the compression stroke it is a true (negative) firing. When it fires on the exhaust stroke, this is a weaker, wasted spark (positive). This refers to the polarity of the center electrode on the plug.
- GM obd1 4 cyl. cars are called type 2. They might look like 6 cyl. type 2’s but are defiantly not the same.
- GM 4 cyl. type 2 ignitions are found in 1987-88 2.0, 2.3 and 2.5 liter Cavalier, Sunbird, Firenza, Skyhawk, Cimarron, Corsica, Beretta, Grand Prix, Cutlass Supreme, Regal, Celebrity, 6000, Ciera, Century, and Regal with Body Codes J, L, W, A,F, P and N (I suspect later models are included, as I am not sure when my Snap-On Manual was printed).
- In a 4 cylinder application, the two notches on the reluctor do not coincide with TDC, but the one at position 5 does.
- The reluctor wheel for a four cyl. has seven slots equally spaced 60 degrees apart. The seventh slot serves to generate a “Synchronization Pulse”. This slot is 70 degrees before position 5 which fires cylinders 1 and 4.
- The second pulse following the “sync pulse” signals the module to fire the #2 and #3 ignition coil with #3 in the compression stroke. The second cylinder in the firing order is always energized before the first. The fifth crank pulse signals the module to fire #1 and #4 of the ignition coil with #4 cylinder in the compression stroke. Then the second notch triggers the #2 and #3 cylinder in the compression stroke. This continues, firing coil packs sequentially resulting in the firing order.
- The engine starts on the ignitor/ignition module, once that happens then there is a five volt connection with the computer which activates the cars main computer spark advance. The ignitor/ignition module will run in a “base time” if it loses its 5 volt connection with the computer.
- On early models (these are the ones we are using), the ignition pulse goes to the ignition module first, on later ones, and it goes to the computer first.

I hope this information is helpful.

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PostPosted: April 20, 2019, 4:44 am 
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Yes, nothing beats first hand exp! Every bit of info helps.

10 btdc at 800 or so rpm idle should be close to stock spec. I think the computer just tweaks the timing one way or the other a few degrees, retard for knock, advance for egr and light load/decel/map.

I'm with Lee in that it is unlikely the oem module would work properly with all those extra trigger steps. Gunner, or anybody testing, please keep us informed.

Here is the timing to go with the previously posted reluctor.


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PostPosted: April 20, 2019, 11:04 am 
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Well, sometimes you have to shovel a lot of poo to find the pony, :BH: but there is a VERY comprehensive series on Youtube on GM wasted spark systems if you have not seen it. They run from part 1 to part 6 plus one more, so you will have to use the Youtube Search for parts 2 - 6 if it does not auto load after each episode.

In it, talks about the ICM dumping 10 degrees of timing on limp in mode when not connected to the pcm. But, it seems he is working on later systems (2000 Buick Lesabre) which according to Snap-on differs from the 87-88 ones.
This can be found in this link about 18:35 minutes in..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPQqJDTJNv4


Here is part 1
\\https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KzLStpBunE

If the links do not highlight, you might have to cut and paste in your browser.


Here is the last one,which is not numbered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2VOD1rvyMY

Hopefully with some brainpower, we can figure out what John did......

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PostPosted: April 20, 2019, 11:19 am 
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Roaddog7....Are you using the trigger wheel in your pictures? It looks nothing like the one that I am using.

Mine (the one John Ehrlick modified) looks exactly like the one in Welderlee's picture on page 3......(bearing in mind mine is a Zetec.

Did you get that trigger wheel from John, did he modify it or is it the stock one?

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PostPosted: April 20, 2019, 3:26 pm 
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Gunner1 wrote:
Roaddog7....Are you using the trigger wheel in your pictures? It looks nothing like the one that I am using.

Mine (the one John Ehrlick modified) looks exactly like the one in Welderlee's picture on page 3......(bearing in mind mine is a Zetec.

Did you get that trigger wheel from John, did he modify it or is it the stock one?

The one I have been using for the last 3+ years and just reinstalled is the regular toothed - with the 1 missing. I'm assuming it just needs that synchronization gap to ignore the extras.


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PostPosted: April 20, 2019, 3:34 pm 
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Welderlee's diagram does explain the extra pulley that came in a box with extra parts when I got the car. Except for the synchronization gap being in a very odd place to mount the position sensor, it look like it would work fine. Both engines are Ranger...


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PostPosted: April 20, 2019, 3:47 pm 
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I'm waiting for the mailman to bring the new Crank Position Sensor today. It sucks being "Locost" by nature sometimes. As my wife pointed out I should have paid for expedited shipping. I did find time to finally make an armrest though!


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PostPosted: April 20, 2019, 8:24 pm 
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Looked tru the manuals I have and GM does not state what the actual amount of advance is. They only say that advance a based on each module and that GM states “EI module also contains an updated back-up spark table to allow proper spark advance should the system go into backup mode”

Not sure if this applies, or if all GM 4 cylinders are the same but Saturn reluctor wheels are timed “the ckp signal defines engine position. A ckp pulse occurs at each tdc, at 60 degrees atdc a seventh pulse referred to as the sync pulse occurs at 70 degrees atdc of cylinder #1.” Also the Saturn manual says that the engines from 93 and newer have an additional 10 degrees of advance added to the reluctor wheel.

I wonder if this is the same 10 degrees that was talked about being added.


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PostPosted: April 21, 2019, 12:42 am 
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Hey, Roadog7.
I was reviewing your posts.
If I have it right,
-you have rebuilt your Duratec and you saw it run fine before the rebuild.
- I am not clear, did your engine run with the Ehrlick ignition system, or is it new to your motor?.
- you initially did not have a crank alignment tool (s) but eyeballed it. If it is like th e Zetec, You need two, one for the crank an one for the camshafts.
- you have spark, the issue appears to be timing.
- your strobe is random and intermittent but coincides with backfires, indicating confused ignition signals.
- It is not clear whether you are using the Duratec crankshaft sensor and trigger wheel or Ehrlich’s crankshaft sensor and trigger wheel, If I read your posts correctly, you are using the Duratec trigger wheel with the Quad4 ignition coils which should not work together.
- In your last post, you show the trigger wheel that matches the one I got from Ehrlich for the Zetec. The difference is that my trigger wheel can be removed from the flywheel damper and re positioned in slotted holes to alter initial timing.
- in your last pic, I can’t make out a key way slot on the crank damper pulley…is there one?
- Despite the fact that from your posts where it seems that your engine ran fine with GM coils and a Ford trigger wheel, I have trouble with that as they are two different systems with different trigger wheel counts.
- My best suggestion is to find true TDC on compression using the timing tools as can be found on Amazon for the crankshaft stop and camshaft stop. Then install the crank damper with the slots that coincide with WelderLees diagram and your last post and see if you can get the crank sensor to point to about an inch before notch #5 per Welderlees diagram. That should fire the engine and get you close.

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PostPosted: April 21, 2019, 3:59 am 
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Gunner1 wrote:
Hey, Roadog7.
I was reviewing your posts.
If I have it right,
-you have rebuilt your Duratec and you saw it run fine before the rebuild.
- I am not clear, did your engine run with the Ehrlick ignition system, or is it new to your motor?.
- you initially did not have a crank alignment tool (s) but eyeballed it. If it is like th e Zetec, You need two, one for the crank an one for the camshafts.
- you have spark, the issue appears to be timing.
- your strobe is random and intermittent but coincides with backfires, indicating confused ignition signals.
- It is not clear whether you are using the Duratec crankshaft sensor and trigger wheel or Ehrlich’s crankshaft sensor and trigger wheel, If I read your posts correctly, you are using the Duratec trigger wheel with the Quad4 ignition coils which should not work together.
- In your last post, you show the trigger wheel that matches the one I got from Ehrlich for the Zetec. The difference is that my trigger wheel can be removed from the flywheel damper and re positioned in slotted holes to alter initial timing.
- in your last pic, I can’t make out a key way slot on the crank damper pulley…is there one?
- Despite the fact that from your posts where it seems that your engine ran fine with GM coils and a Ford trigger wheel, I have trouble with that as they are two different systems with different trigger wheel counts.
- My best suggestion is to find true TDC on compression using the timing tools as can be found on Amazon for the crankshaft stop and camshaft stop. Then install the crank damper with the slots that coincide with WelderLees diagram and your last post and see if you can get the crank sensor to point to about an inch before notch #5 per Welderlees diagram. That should fire the engine and get you close.

Hey Gunner1,
I'll try to clarify a few of the details:

-I've had the car 3-1/2 yrs. Car ran on the Ehrlich Q4R (GM) ignition with never a fault. Upon rebuilding a better spare motor. I reinstalled the exact same damper pulley with the integral stock multi-toothed trigger wheel. All electronics remained the same. I actually had the old engine out twice for transmission and clutch issues. Both times everything went back together and ran fine after.
-Engine was very carefully assembled with the proper crankshaft pin, camshaft holders, and bolt locating crank pulley to engine cover. There are no crankshaft key ways. The duratec (Ford Ranger) engine relies on an extremely tight crankshaft bolt with friction washers to hold it all together.
-The part I did not have was an alignment tool for the actual crankshaft position sensor - Stock 2-wire Ford part. The sensor simply lines up directly in line with nearest tooth with engine at TDC. I ordered a new sensor which comes with a its own plastic alignment tool to locate the sensor.

- When I first attempted to start the engine I seemed to get some firing but also a great deal of backfire activity. I then per suggestion here, found a timing light and noted some erratic flashes. I then readjusted the Crank Position sensor with greater accuracy (within 1/10 mm.)
-Since then I have had no spark... I also have no tach activity either- also pointing to faulty sensor. I am currently waiting for the new sensor to arrive - I'm hoping it is the defective part.
-The extra pulley with the 7 notches like your diagram came in a box with extra engine parts. I was confused seeing it and thought it actually might belong to a 6 cylinder although it does fit my crank.

-To reiterate one key point - I'm extremely confident in the timing of the new engine, as well as the timing of the old engine some components came off of.

Thanks again for all your input! It's amazing how complexly simple (and interesting) a system like this can be. I do stand by the Quad4rod setup and hope to get at least another season out of it. I must admit the Nodiz system looks nice though... :)


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PostPosted: April 21, 2019, 11:12 am 
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Thanks for the clarification Roadog7. I understand now that the engine was running great with the Quad4 Rods Set up.
I learn something every day. I had understood that the Ford and GM trigger wheels were not compatible. But, they both appear to be 36-1.
That pulley you got from John is the same cut for a six as a four cyl engine. There are 7 notches. They just are read differently by the six cyl ecu. I have not looked into how to interpret the notches in a Duratec trigger wheel. Looks pretty complex.
The Quad 4 Rods 7 slot one looks easier to interpret….and time.

I hear ya when you say that the timing of the new engine is spot on. Do you mean spot on including ignition timing?

It looks like ignition timing is adjusted by moving the crank pulley, or can you move the sensor or the whole damper pulley on the crank shaft? I suspect it is the pulley. Sorry for what may be redundant questions.

- Did you check and mark the crank pulley position in relation to the sensor when the engine was at TDC before you popped the popped the pulley off the crank?
- You say that the sensor lines up with the nearest tooth at TDC. TDC is pretty hard to interpret on a trigger wheel. I might suggest you take the other trigger wheel that John supplied) (or make a cardboard cutout for the sake of space) and super impose it on your Duratec trigger wheel. That way you can see how close you are to positon 5 on Welderlees diagram as this point should be at TDC. Then you can adjust for advance so that your cps is just before that point.
- You have decreased your CPS gap to 1/10 mm for greater accuracy. My understanding is that it should be set at .050 inches, which is 1.27 mm. It may be that you need to go back to the larger gap. From my perspective, closing up the gap will cut the dwell time and that might be the problem.
- Might be an idea to try the other trigger wheel as it is simpler and easier to interpret.

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PostPosted: April 21, 2019, 9:29 pm 
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there are three parts to timing the duratec, the crank stop, beware that the crank stop pin is the right one for the duratec.

the cam aligning tool will only fit in one position, if you aligned it by eye you may have it upside down, do you have the inlet cam in the correct side of the head?

can you get the 6mm screw in the harmonic balancer hole to screw into the timing cover?

if all above is correct then mark your reluctor wheel with paint and put a similar mark on the timing cover aligned with the mark on the reluctor, now put a timing light on the #1 plug wire and crank the engine, you should be 10 degrees advanced by the two marks from TDC if this is not the case then adjust the reluctor to align the marks you painted on bearing in mind the 10 degrees advance.

once the lines are showing good then you may want to switch the 1-4 and the 2-3 plug wires to see if you have a better spark.

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PostPosted: April 22, 2019, 12:04 am 
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While on the subject of Quad4rods ignitions.

Can any one tell me if there are any issues hooking up the tac wire? I have not done this yet. But am about to.

I have Dolphin gauges. The question for me is can the tac wire hook directly to the signal terminal on the tac, or do I need an adapter, if so, which one?
Also, is the tac set to 4 cyl for a Zetec/Duratec or 8 cyl as it is a wasted spark system?

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PostPosted: April 22, 2019, 4:50 am 
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Gunner1 wrote:
While on the subject of Quad4rods ignitions.

Can any one tell me if there are any issues hooking up the tac wire? I have not done this yet. But am about to.

I have Dolphin gauges. The question for me is can the tac wire hook directly to the signal terminal on the tac, or do I need an adapter, if so, which one?
Also, is the tac set to 4 cyl for a Zetec/Duratec or 8 cyl as it is a wasted spark system?

I don't know about Dolphin gauges, but the setup was straight forward for an Autometer procomp tach. That was the one time I had contact with John Ehrlich - he was quite helpful. There was no adapter involved although John did send me a missing plug - the center one with the white wire. On the Autometer gauge, there is an internal dip switch that had to be set to "Single Pulse". If you have documentation look for the single pulse setup.


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