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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: January 10, 2011, 11:22 pm 
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To simplify things - What about using parts from a Ford industrial V4 - Rods and pistons ought to be the same as for one of the V8's, would need to do something to the intake if you wanted fuel injection, and could fool a few inputs to the computer so you could use one off a V8...

Go for a billet Aluminum block with wet liners... Wonder how much that chunk would cost???


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PostPosted: June 21, 2011, 2:36 pm 
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kf2qd wrote:
What about using parts from a Ford industrial V4 - Rods and pistons ought to be the same as for one of the V8's


The V4 is a member of the "Cologne" engine family, pretty much dead nowadays, though a few second-generation 4.0L V6s are still rolling. Not much parts commonality with those, though.

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Go for a billet Aluminum block with wet liners... Wonder how much that chunk would cost???


$1500 to $2500 for the billet, probably twice that to validate your CNC code and then machine it.


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PostPosted: July 2, 2011, 2:35 pm 
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oldejack wrote:
no grain means no torsional strength...


Sorry, but this isn't true. No grain means no shear planes and no misalignment, and most importantly no defects at which cracks could start. The matrix holding the metal together is stronger with no grain, not weaker, and that's what gives it its strength. It's not wood, where the fibers give it strength.


Great idea, it'd take an enormous amount of design work (and a thorough knowledge of CAD and FEA) though. I've considered such a project myself (I'm fairly adept at Solidworks), but there's so much to consider and engineering challenges to tackle, that I've left it till I've finished my schooling and can approach it correctly.


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PostPosted: July 15, 2011, 10:31 pm 
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OrangeCrusader wrote:
oldejack wrote:
no grain means no torsional strength...


Sorry, but this isn't true. No grain means no shear planes and no misalignment, and most importantly no defects at which cracks could start. The matrix holding the metal together is stronger with no grain, not weaker, and that's what gives it its strength..


Indeed, my company builds/supplies Cold and Warm Isostatic Presses which are used to build rocket/missile parts amongst other things for this very reason.


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PostPosted: July 16, 2011, 11:46 am 
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cheapracer wrote:
Indeed, my company builds/supplies Cold and Warm Isostatic Presses which are used to build rocket/missile parts amongst other things for this very reason.


Very cool, my background is manufacturing engineering and mech eng., that's the sort of tech we daydream of in our FSAE team.. How much do you think something like an engine block (solidworks file provided), or a run of 3 or 4 units would cost, if it's feasible at all at this scale?


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PostPosted: November 20, 2011, 10:17 pm 
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Ok, was browsing these forums heavily the past two days after discovering them (never having even heard of the Lotus Seven until friday night) and was finding excuse after excuse not to join (never going to have time to build myself a car, the usual) but then ran across this thread and saw something right up my alley. No, not an engine designer. I am, however, an electronics guy who has been having a lot of luck in adapting 3D printers to metalwork. I've had several tests now combining an object printed in low grade plastic with the old lost wax/lost foam casting technique. Simply put, I print the object I need on my homemade printer, place it in some high temperature casting sand or plaster, and then pour in the metal. While the common thought is that cast is not as strong as forged, in my experience it is not as far off as we often times think, and a cast part if done right can be sufficiently strong for most uses, including auto parts. (My SUV currently has several custom printed replacements for its suspension system)


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PostPosted: November 26, 2011, 4:44 am 
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Downix wrote:
I've had several tests now combining an object printed in low grade plastic with the old lost wax/lost foam casting technique.

While the common thought is that cast is not as strong as forged,


That's very interesting, do you have any pics/more info?

Casting is the same just alloys have dramatically improved over time, most high performance pistons are cast for example whereas once upon a time you would only consider forged.


OrangeCrusader wrote:
cheapracer wrote:
Indeed, my company builds/supplies Cold and Warm Isostatic Presses which are used to build rocket/missile parts amongst other things for this very reason.


How much do you think something like an engine block (solidworks file provided), or a run of 3 or 4 units would cost, if it's feasible at all at this scale?


Not a hope, I do wonder if it's worth compressing a block (crank, pistons, conrods etc) for stress relief though - mind you if there was any air trapped in some porous casting that would be the end of the block (or part).


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PostPosted: November 30, 2011, 2:22 pm 
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Tom17 wrote:
So I have a spanner, and i'm throwing it in to the works here...

So, if we are planning this open engine project to be an i4, hows about this as something to ponder... Is there any way we could get insight into what the F1 guys will be doing for 2013? I know that they will be heavily guarded secrets, but maybe some basic ideas will be revealed, ideas that could possibly be borrowed.

Now I have no idea what those guys will come up with - how much more can you do to a basic i4 turbo? - but one thing is for sure, they are going to be throwing millions at wringing out ~750 horses from those little 1.6 FI engines so there is bound to be some cool new stuff that might be usable. (That or they just throw oodles of boost at the problem :( )

I know you would ideally want to base this thing on an already well established design, but what if we could base it on the next iteration of bleeding edge i4 tech?

I know there was no real content in what I said, it's just something else for us to think about...


So I was just browsing around the web, as you do, and saw that they have finalised this. However, the teams did not want i4 engines (Can't be used as a structural member, would need spaceframes etc) so the new regs for 2014 will be 1.6L V6 turbocharged.

So not relevant here any more :)

Tom...


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PostPosted: December 2, 2011, 1:23 am 
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Tom17 wrote:
Tom17 wrote:
So I have a spanner, and i'm throwing it in to the works here...

So, if we are planning this open engine project to be an i4, hows about this as something to ponder... Is there any way we could get insight into what the F1 guys will be doing for 2013? I know that they will be heavily guarded secrets, but maybe some basic ideas will be revealed, ideas that could possibly be borrowed.

Now I have no idea what those guys will come up with - how much more can you do to a basic i4 turbo? - but one thing is for sure, they are going to be throwing millions at wringing out ~750 horses from those little 1.6 FI engines so there is bound to be some cool new stuff that might be usable. (That or they just throw oodles of boost at the problem :( )

I know you would ideally want to base this thing on an already well established design, but what if we could base it on the next iteration of bleeding edge i4 tech?

I know there was no real content in what I said, it's just something else for us to think about...


So I was just browsing around the web, as you do, and saw that they have finalised this. However, the teams did not want i4 engines (Can't be used as a structural member, would need spaceframes etc) so the new regs for 2014 will be 1.6L V6 turbocharged.

So not relevant here any more :)

Tom...

That simplifies things as there is already a V-8 open source model which could be adapted.

(and not ignoring the previous request for pictures, just no time to take any, but hopefully this weekend can manage some)


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PostPosted: December 16, 2011, 2:07 pm 
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Ok, I am horrid at remembering to take pictures, but I did try a test cast of a V-block idea, just two cylinders and found it rather difficult to get right due to the split angles. Metal wanted to go the wrong way, uneven cast. Tried again for an inline two, came out well. I think for simplicity sake you may want to stick to either inline or wankel. I will see about making somefiles to show how it would be built.


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PostPosted: December 16, 2011, 3:55 pm 
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Downix wrote:
Ok, I am horrid at remembering to take pictures, but I did try a test cast of a V-block idea, just two cylinders and found it rather difficult to get right due to the split angles. Metal wanted to go the wrong way, uneven cast. Tried again for an inline two, came out well. I think for simplicity sake you may want to stick to either inline or wankel. I will see about making somefiles to show how it would be built.



OK - How about making the block so it splits vertically. 2 - 2 cylinder section that bolt together to make a V4. Or go for a square 4 a la Ar-i-el Square 4.


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PostPosted: December 17, 2011, 1:18 am 
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kf2qd wrote:
Downix wrote:
Ok, I am horrid at remembering to take pictures, but I did try a test cast of a V-block idea, just two cylinders and found it rather difficult to get right due to the split angles. Metal wanted to go the wrong way, uneven cast. Tried again for an inline two, came out well. I think for simplicity sake you may want to stick to either inline or wankel. I will see about making somefiles to show how it would be built.



OK - How about making the block so it splits vertically. 2 - 2 cylinder section that bolt together to make a V4. Or go for a square 4 a la Ar-i-el Square 4.


Sounds similar to how my old motorcycle engine was built, or this new Subaru engine I'd just picked up, so should be doable. Likely would require some unusual cam arrangement, or an overhead cam. I'll study the EJ-22 some.


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PostPosted: December 24, 2011, 12:45 pm 
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Ok, EJ-22 has been disassembled and studied. Should be doable. But a thought struck me, and I wanted to check in here first. A modular V-engine, where the cylinders are added to the base block, allows for two configurations if done right, one set of cylinders, or both sets. One set would basically have a cover plate. There is a method to my madness here. I am a fan of the Slant-6 from Chrysler, so I thought to set up an engine block similarly, but with this "either-or" configuration. Doing research, I found an existing, although old, engine which did just this, the Wolseley. It was used in both cars and airplanes, and was designed in such a way so as to allow for both inline and V formations. I'm attaching a wiki picture of this engine here to show you what I mean.


Attachments:
File comment: Wosley 120 HP V8 Aero Engine
Wolseley_120_hp_V8_aero_engine_(Rankin_Kennedy,_Modern_Engines,_Vol_III).jpg
Wolseley_120_hp_V8_aero_engine_(Rankin_Kennedy,_Modern_Engines,_Vol_III).jpg [ 240.37 KiB | Viewed 1544 times ]
File comment: Wosley 120 HP V8 Aero Engine
Wolseley_120_hp_V8_aero_engine,_cross_section_(Rankin_Kennedy,_Modern_Engines,_Vol_III).jpg
Wolseley_120_hp_V8_aero_engine,_cross_section_(Rankin_Kennedy,_Modern_Engines,_Vol_III).jpg [ 96.76 KiB | Viewed 1545 times ]
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PostPosted: January 3, 2012, 2:22 pm 
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kf2qd wrote:
Go for a billet Aluminum block with wet liners... Wonder how much that chunk would cost???

I flashed back to this while working, and realized that this would simplify things for the home forge operator. Simplifies the molds dramatically. So using that, sat down last night and began work. I'm cleaning up the model right now, but have the wet liner finished and should have the model online later today.


Attachments:
File comment: Wet Liner, bore 84mm, stroke 104mm
Wet Cylinder.png
Wet Cylinder.png [ 30.58 KiB | Viewed 1453 times ]
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PostPosted: January 3, 2012, 3:16 pm 
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You can buy cast iron stock and aluminum sections for this.

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