LocostUSA.com

This should really be in the "In Theory, Could It Work?" forum, but this should be close enough.

The long and short of it: foot space is at a premium in a Locost, right? So how about using hand controls instead? I'll admit fully I have not much idea of exactly how they work (other than seeing Jesse James outfit a Mercedes M series with one on a Monster Garage episode), but I have to imagine that if you design them in at the beginning rather than making them a retrofit, you could conceivably give your feet some more space.

Unknowns:
1) How much space hand controls require, and where.
2) Whether hand controls are compatible with driving a manual vehicle (if you don't have three arms).
3) Whether you still need the pedals to hook the manual controls up to.

Alternatively, there is the idea of joystick control; forward = throttle, back = brake, side-to-side = right to left. That could eliminate both the pedals and the steering wheel, but again, whether it's compatible with a manual gearbox (without having to turn it into a semi-manual with solenoids or something) is a total unknown. Plus, you'd likely have to engineer the whole thing yourself, unlike hand controls which are available off-the-shelf.

This is more airing out a brain fart than any serious supposition, but comments/ideas are welcome, especially if you're familiar with hand controls. I'm genuinely curious.

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Andrew

Exploring every single option, permutation, and possibility, to figure out what flavour of awesome I want.

Yo, Nether-
Seems to me like John Buffum had an electric-over-hydraulic clutch on one of those rip-snortin Audi Group B rally cars back in the day. It was a "button" on the gearshift that you pushed and held in to disengage the clutch while you shifted, then released when you'd caught the next gear. Wasn't used to start from standstill, but, with some work, maybe could be.

Or...

Use an aircraft style "yoke" instead of a steering wheel, and you could put the brake handle on one side and clutch on the other, and twist the right side for throttle, essentially adapting motorcycle controls to the ends of the yoke, and then shift with paddles or buttons...

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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom

why not have gearshift in one hand, and joystick in the other? That way you just need a clutch. OR, if you're running a bike transmission, why not an airshift kit?
Alternatively, you could have a twist throttle on your joystick or gearshift. My main concern with forward for gas, back for brake, is if you have a sudden stop (like an obstacle) you would be thrown forwards, accelerating. That could be a safety issue.
Would a hand clutch like on motorcycle be possible?

Oh and +1 on the yoke- I thought of that, too, but wasn't sure how to execute it.

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Jest another locostusa lurker... for now

This reminds me of Alan Stacey, he raced for Lotus in F1 and had only one leg. They would set his cars up with a twist grip on the shift lever but still retain the brake and clutch pedal. i would assume that he only used the clutch for starting the races.

Automotive power brake master cylinder for clutch, motorcycle clutch lever on gearshift to actuate the (vacuum powered, adapted from brake MC) clutch, leave the brake and throttle on the floor. There's plenty of room for two pedals.

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Locost builder and adventurer, and founder (but no longer owner) of Kinetic Vehicles

Feel lucky you can use your feet, my 'Cus is a tetraplegic meaning he is halfway between a paraplegic and a quadraplegic. Even with very limited use of his hands he drives everywhere so if your really into it check out some 'car mods for disadvantaged people' type websites for ideas.

I like these ideas. I especially like the idea of a motorcycle clutch on the gearshift lever. That could allow some people I know with messed up knees to still drive a manual.

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Andrew

Exploring every single option, permutation, and possibility, to figure out what flavour of awesome I want.

I've thought about the clutch on the gearshifter for a while. They say in a BEC that sometimes with bike tranny its hard to get good feel with the feet the way you would with hands on bike so I figured the clutch/shiftlever would work well. It is a hand clutch to begin with.

Not sure about other functions but that's one less pedal. Had a buddy that wanted to put a boat like throttle in but would't work well with above clutch unless again it was the 3 armed man.

As for brake remember that unless you have really strong arms on a car it'd b hard to push/pull enough by hand compared to foot braking force. I know heavy bikes can but in general keep that in mind

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90 talon as old dd turned into donor for the locost
06 suzuki sv1ks for the kneedragging fix

mitsu 4g63 powered 442e - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7317&start=0

And I've done it for a while, I set up my first hands actuated power-brake-as-clutch system in the mid-80s and have had over 5000 para and amp clients/customers since then.Okay, I'll bite: how do you know this? I've learned lots on this forum (and from you, lusipher134) but there are probably 50,000 people in the US who drive with hand controls-- if you're one of them and are speaking from experience, I'll be more attentive to your "keep that in mind" than if a hand control using friend told you that, or worst case, if you (shudder) read that on the internet, posted by someone who may not have ever used hand controls to stop a car but assumes it would be hard.

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Locost builder and adventurer, and founder (but no longer owner) of Kinetic Vehicles

I didn't realize so many vehicles have been retrofitted with hand controls.

And I don't know for sure if braking is harder from good experience but I may have been upside down ina footwell (not in a moving vehicle, don't ask) and it seemed to b hard to push by hand than foot. And my legs are stronger than arms but realize I've never overly excerted my leg muscles or needed more muscle to stop. With power brake boosters or different sizing master cylinder or such options maybe it is easier than it seems. Never driven a hand controled vehicle other than motorcycle.

I didn't mean to come off as stating it as a fact just maybe something to test/check into. I thought hand control modifications for parapaligics and amputees were just a each one a custom one of a kind thing. I didn't realize there was an industry or much past info one this.
Thank you for shining some extra light on the situation

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90 talon as old dd turned into donor for the locost
06 suzuki sv1ks for the kneedragging fix

mitsu 4g63 powered 442e - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7317&start=0

Yo-
I've had a similar experience to what Lusiphur describes, where I was pushing on the brake pedal with my hand/arm. (Yeah, don't ask...) It does seem to take a bit of effort. However, what ya have to take into account is that the lever arm (brake pedal) was designed to work with the force that a grown-up humanoid would be able to exert with his/her leg and weight behind it.

A hand control, designed to be a hand control, would have more "leverage" built into it, requiring less force to exert the same pressure at the other end of the system, brake or clutch or whatever.

In other words, the experience of pushing a foot brake with your hand doesn't really translate to using "real" hand controls.

I confess to never having tried a car with hand controls. I always thought a lever on the gearshift, like the hand brake lever on a bicycle, that controlled the clutch pedal would be handy to have, just never actually tried to build one.


JDK

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JD, father of Quinn, Son of a... Build Log
Quinn the Slotus:Ford 302 Powered, Mallock-Inspired, Tube Frame, Hillclimb Special
"Gonzo and friends: Last night must have been quite a night. Camelot moments, mechanical marvels, Rustoleum launches, flying squirrels, fru-fru tea cuppers, V8 envy, Ensure catch cans -- and it wasn't even a full moon." -- SeattleTom

I have heard of rock crawlers and other zany types put a control on their gear shift so as to be able to use the clutch, brake, AND gas all at the same time to get out of awkward situations.

I don't recall if it is a brake or clutch lever, but either control usually takes some oomph to work, so the lever on the gear shift should be adequate for either.

So I'm not the only one with questionable arm strength
Like you said the pedal is designed with leverage in mind for foot/leg strength, not hand.
I ride motorcycles and those breaks will pull front wheelies(endos) with any average person at the controls without a brake booster like car so I know it can be done. Not sure if is simple lever ratio in the pedal/lever or master cylinder design or both

Also figure many industrial and construction vehicles have only hand controls so it can be done in some sense without normal passenger vehicle controls, although a car that steers like a skid steer or forklift probably isn't safest at high speed

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90 talon as old dd turned into donor for the locost
06 suzuki sv1ks for the kneedragging fix

mitsu 4g63 powered 442e - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7317&start=0

> So I'm not the only one with questionable arm strength

Sorry, I hadn't realized it was a question, I thought you were telling us how it is.

Hand controls typically have about a 50% mechanical advantage over pushing directly on the brake pedal, so instead of 2" of pedal travel, they have 3" of grip travel, but it seems to be no big deal. Look how much range of leg strength there is among the normies, any modern car with modern brakes can be given full braking input by an 16 year old 90 pound girl pushing the pedal with her foot.

Tens of thousands of disabled drivers use hand controls, and very few have any power augmentation other than the usual power brakes that came with the car in the first place. It's barely even an interesting design problem until you get into manual transmissions.

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Locost builder and adventurer, and founder (but no longer owner) of Kinetic Vehicles

What about seeing if Chet can make you a third arm?


Sorry, I had to

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Jest another locostusa lurker... for now