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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: April 18, 2011, 3:50 pm 
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Thanks olrowdy for your info about the 2 strokes. I found the link an essential reading for anyone who is interested in the future of this technology. The note about Toyota:
"The biggest, most complex and heaviest of the conceptual automotive two-strokes is Toyota’s design. The engine is basically one of the company’s dual-overhead cam, four-stroke engines converted to run a two-stroke cycle. The camshafts run at crankshaft speed and air is delivered to the intake valves through a supercharger. Fuel is added through a high-pressure, direct-injection system. An in-line, six cylinder, 244 cubic-inch version of this engine is said to produce torque equal to GM’s 454 V8". ....

reminds me of a 1999 US /Canadian patent

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6286467.pdf

that was offering a means to convert conventional 4 strokes into two strokes. The work involved a new crankshaft and a new camshaft sprocket. I think that route would be an excellent way to go for a small shop to develop a performance 2 stroke using a 4 stroke block from the scrap yard.

Philippe


Last edited by philippe2 on April 19, 2011, 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: April 19, 2011, 2:56 am 
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Olrowdy,you mentioned a flat submarine engine with 2 cranks ,im trying to remember a truck with that same set up,i think it was a foden or scania ,i think it was a 70"s truck they had a very destinct sound ,there have been loads of 2 stroke diesels built over the years ,rolls royce built a cool 2 stroke inline 6 with exaust valves only,supercharged,they powered foden buses .


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PostPosted: April 19, 2011, 10:17 am 
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wayne-o wrote:
Olrowdy,you mentioned a flat submarine engine with 2 cranks ,im trying to remember a truck with that same set up,i think it was a foden or scania ,i think it was a 70"s truck they had a very destinct sound ,there have been loads of 2 stroke diesels built over the years ,

rolls royce built a cool 2 stroke inline 6 with exaust valves only,supercharged,they powered foden buses .


Opposed piston 2 strokes are quite common through history using 2 cranks and theres a 3 crank version as well, the name escapes me at the moment - used for planes, trains, ships and tanks.

GM aka Detroit Diesels aka "The Jimmy" have many millions of "supercharged exhaust valve only" 2 strokes running around the world from the 30's through to the 80's and many still running today, I have even seen a Jimmy 6 in a '57 Chev!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_71


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PostPosted: April 19, 2011, 2:58 pm 
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wayne-o wrote:
Olrowdy,you mentioned a flat submarine engine with 2 cranks ,im trying to remember a truck with that same set up,i think it was a foden or scania ,i think it was a 70"s truck they had a very destinct sound ,there have been loads of 2 stroke diesels built over the years ,rolls royce built a cool 2 stroke inline 6 with exaust valves only,supercharged,they powered foden buses .



Here is another example showing how eager engineers are still today to improve the IC engine:

http://www.engineeringtv.com/video/Oppo ... d-Cylinder


Philippe


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PostPosted: April 19, 2011, 3:48 pm 
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Cheapracer,

The three crank Diesel was the Napier Deltic, most commonly seen on some older Britrail locomotives, but also used in some naval vessels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Deltic

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PostPosted: April 21, 2011, 4:44 am 
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philippe2 wrote:
Here is another example showing how eager engineers are still today to improve the IC engine:
Philippe


No it's another example of how people get money out of suckers pockets - again look at the history and time line of that company/engine and how many millions they have sucked dry.

They are also aiming at the military because they don't have a show of getting emissions certification for road use.

If you can't get a prototype up and running for a hundred grand and within 12 months then theres something up - it does not take millions and 10 years but the numbers of people who do that is disgusting as is who's money they often take.

Heres is 3 examples of people who do it on a shoestring and have real engines powering real cars - not just 3D computer images.

http://www.sixstroke.com/

http://www.pattakon.com/ - look how many Man has besides 2 actual running cars (as well as various engines, pretty amazing).

http://www.new4stroke.com/

Thanks Warren.


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PostPosted: April 21, 2011, 11:19 am 
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[quote
No it's another example of how people get money out of suckers pockets - again look at the history and time line of that company/engine and how many millions they have sucked dry.

.[/quote]


I share your cynicism Warren. Unfortunately the R&D workplace has become populated with lawyers and crooked investment adventurers leaving little room for engineers and other visionaries. On the split cycle engine one should throw in the name of Rick Mayne, an Australian inventor who, according to the Web vanished with the money of his backers. I don't know what his idea of a miracle IC engine was and perhaps I don't need to know.

My initial idea for this thead was to hear from Locosters whether a conventional 4 stroke engine could be profitably turned into a 2 stroke one. The underlying thought was that we as a group do not have research and development budgets and all we can do is limited with respect to money (and for some here time too). So going beyond the talk would necessarily mean doing something cheap. What I have heard back, I think, is that turning a functional 4 stroke engine into a 2 stroke one may not be worth the trouble, and I am now leaning in that direction too (unless I hear or read something different). I still hope however to figure out a way to rig up a 2 cycle performance engine to a seven. It would have to be a direct fuel injection type with a clean and reliable lubricating system. My sense is that we won't have to wait too long for such engines to appear on the market. I know that some are already here, Bombardier's E-tech for instance, but two years ago I checked with Bombardier Austrian engine development branch, they told me that they had not moved yet beyond recreational (off road) vehicles as far as emissions were concerned. So this is where I am at at this point. Thanks for your interesting contribution to this subject.

Philippe


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PostPosted: April 21, 2011, 1:54 pm 
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philippe2 wrote:
On the split cycle engine one should throw in the name of Rick Mayne, an Australian inventor who, according to the Web vanished with the money of his backers. I don't know what his idea of a miracle IC engine was and perhaps I don't need to know.

Philippe


Sad thing, he was local to me and I often saw his 2 Lambo's parked at his house in Canungra (near Brisbane). Sad was an older man with a glint in his eye in my workshop telling me how much money he had invested and what a great thing it was going to be - and that was late in the game too when there was enough info around for you to be pretty silly to put your hand anywhere near your pocket.

Then there was a scotch yoke Subaru engine developed in Oz as well - 6 years and $35 million for a couple of running engine that had no conclusive benefits .... and surprise they seem to have disappeared http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-SyTe ... ticle.html


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PostPosted: April 21, 2011, 5:52 pm 
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Hi all
Thanks cheapracer for a link to my site. You already know it for a few years, then you're already a little familiar with this construction. but for others it is probably novelty.
I have an even greater distance to this and will try to give you what version of the engine was that to my eye, the most appropriate.
No. So certainly the easiest in terms of performance. But it's very difficult for the proper design, because all dimensions are closely related. I think it could be to create a special oupen software for the design of such engines. Because without it can be hard. We have here the possibility of combinations of dimensions counted in millions, and without the software, appropriate design of the engine is virtually impossible. This is the basic version.

Image
Image
Image

Not to repeat in August to give files stored pages gzie a few questions about the engine is described:
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4535
http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=10799

Regards Andrew :D


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PostPosted: April 21, 2011, 9:41 pm 
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philippe2 wrote:
Here is another example showing how eager engineers are still today to improve the IC engine:

http://www.engineeringtv.com/video/Oppo ... d-Cylinder

Philippe
I like that one. That's a unique way to eliminate the 2nd/3rd crank shaft and the engine should be fairly easy to balance.

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PostPosted: April 21, 2011, 11:12 pm 
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cheapracer wrote:
philippe2 wrote:
Here is another example showing how eager engineers are still today to improve the IC engine:
Philippe
No it's another example of how people get money out of suckers pockets - again look at the history and time line of that company/engine and how many millions they have sucked dry.

Ya, but it's marks not dollars. Ve need them here to make more jobs sooner. :lol:

And they have also come up with a working, completely different dual inline piston engine in the process.


They are also aiming at the military because they don't have a show of getting emissions certification for road use.

The military doesn't need no steenking emission control. One huge bomb and no one will notice the emissions from the engine. I would guess their engine is no harder to meet emissions than other diesel engines.

If you can't get a prototype up and running for a hundred grand and within 12 months then theres something up - it does not take millions and 10 years but the numbers of people who do that is disgusting as is who's money they often take.

So how much -did- you loose? :)

Heres is 3 examples of people who do it on a shoestring and have real engines powering real cars - not just 3D computer images.

http://www.sixstroke.com/

He says he's been working on ideas for 30 YEARS and his dual-inline piston engine was tested on a motorcycle in 2007.
AND
It seems he's one of those guys sucking up everyone's money. A quote from his website,

"..... I am a shareholder in a number of companies, and actively involved with number of automotive development organizations including Sixstroke Engine Developments P/L, Beare Head P/L, Beare Technology P/L, and am the inventor/automotive engineer charged with the responsibility of spearheading the progressive development to commercial ready status of my various inventions prototypes. .........."

That's to the left of his dual inline piston engine that looks strangely like the German one.

Maybe they only gave him a $100K budget since 2007 to get it to market?


http://www.pattakon.com/ - look how many Man has besides 2 actual running cars (as well as various engines, pretty amazing).

Items 1 and 2 obviously weren't done in a year on a shoestring budget. F1 teams spend fortunes developing electronic valve activation only to have it outlawed later.
Item 3 IS a computer animation, not a working engine. I'd like to see that thing run for a few hours at 15,000 RPM!
Item 4, is unique. But I doubt he came up with it in <1 year. Rather than make the engine run faster he makes it run *slower*! My Model T could probably "Cadillac" slower than this engine. And it put out all of 20 Hp too! :-(
Items 5 and 6 are the opposed piston engines that you don't like in your premiss.


http://www.new4stroke.com/

The first prototype was finished in 1979. The 2nd prototype was done in 1984. Opps, there went the one year limit. It seems that he's "... constantly searching for funds etc ...." and he didn't patent it either.

Thanks Warren.
The last one looks like a problem still looking for a solution. He's got the disadvantages of two more pistions, rods etc , friction of the pistons etc, extra weight of the extra parts, crank, extra height etc and the advantages are? Just use oversize valves and Desmodromic valve activation and get it over with.

http://www.micapeak.com/winona/ducati/desmo-valves.gif

Or maybe your post is a troll? Naw.......... :lol:

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PostPosted: April 22, 2011, 1:56 am 
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olrowdy_01 wrote:

Or maybe your post is a troll? Naw.......... :lol:


These people can take as long as they want because they didn't seek others funding - that point you missed.

The 6 stroke engine was a backyard job developed over many years as a hobby then he had some offer of help which turned out to be a con man using his idea to swindle others including himself - read the court papers and yes Mal got about $100K out of the millions of investment funding of which every cent is accounted for, every single small reciept for development and he has actual real running engines in vehicles and none for his pocket. I recently spent a day with Mal and his lovely family and Mal drives around in the equivelent of a mid 90's Chev family sedan and I paid for his lunch, no Lambo's there. Also Mal did all the work with his own hands, no employed labour etc.

Man has 2 road going cars with considerable miles on them using his own hand built VVT systems that are his design and patents, check out the videos at the website of them being driven - his ideas and patents are up for licencing but he never openly seeks investor funding and makes everything himself - I have no idea why you would put him down and yeah, I don't like opposed piston engines including his, you can not make the combustion work so Man's wasting his time there. He has an idea, makes it himself at his own cost, patents it himself at his own cost them takes the ideas to automotive and machine shows and sees if anyone wants to buy it/licence it - who is he ripping off or hurting?


Feliks is well known around the engine forums, funny guy - and again you missed the point, Feliks had his engine (more than one actually) up and running before he asked if anyone wanted to help him develop further after his main engine (which he was running in a rally) blew up and he is not a wealthy man by any stretch. Feliks would have been happy with a few hundred bucks to rebuild his engine not the squillions that 3D graphic'ed you beaut websites seek - that don't have real running engines!!


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PostPosted: April 22, 2011, 11:12 am 
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cheapracer wrote:
olrowdy_01 wrote:

Or maybe your post is a troll? Naw.......... :lol:
These people can take as long as they want because they didn't seek others funding - that point you missed.

But you implied a one year time limit on doing it for a company or the home inventor. I think you missed the point of my post.

The 6 stroke engine was a backyard job developed over many years as a hobby then he had some offer of help which turned out to be a con man using his idea to swindle others including himself - read the court papers and yes Mal got about $100K out of the millions of investment funding of which every cent is accounted for, every single small reciept for development and he has actual real running engines in vehicles and none for his pocket. I recently spent a day with Mal and his lovely family and Mal drives around in the equivelent of a mid 90's Chev family sedan and I paid for his lunch, no Lambo's there. Also Mal did all the work with his own hands, no employed labour etc.

First off, I hope you realize I was just kidding around with your post. I have no axe to grind against any of the references you posted. I was strictly looking at the designs from a cost vs time aspect (and if they were practical).

But each of the engines you mentioned obviously took more than a year to develop. And probably required more than $100K (certainly in time) to do. I took about 2 hours to look at each of the references you gave and thought if any of these ideas were that outstanding then it shouldn't have been that much of a problem to get funding to fully develop them.

For instance the first desmo valve train patent was granted in 1896.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve

But the new adaptation of it is quite ingenious. But not something that broke new unlimited territory. If the need for a desmo type valve train was that pressing it would now be easier to use a computer controlled electrically activated valve train. Then you can have unlimited "cams" selectable by the computer.


Man has 2 road going cars with considerable miles on them using his own hand built VVT systems that are his design and patents, check out the videos at the website of them being driven - his ideas and patents are up for licencing but he never openly seeks investor funding and makes everything himself - I have no idea why you would put him down and yeah,

I wasn't putting HIM down. Personally I have never heard of him until you posted the URL. So I don't have anything for or against him, or his family, or his friends for that matter.

I was looking at the result of all this work and seeing if could have been done in 1 year and if it could have been done for less than 100K by an honest company that had gotten funds from investors.

I think the machine tools and test equipment alone would cost more than 100K. And most likely that is why HE is looking for funding. Nothing wrong with that.
-BUT-
You were comparing a company doing the job vs an individual working on the same problem. The fact that HE could get the device to it's present state of development with whatever tools he had available shouldn't require -everyone- to use the same tools. That's part of the expenses a larger company has.


I don't like opposed piston engines including his, you can not make the combustion work so Man's wasting his time there. He has an idea, makes it himself at his own cost, patents it himself at his own cost them takes the ideas to automotive and machine shows and sees if anyone wants to buy it/licence it - who is he ripping off or hurting?

A lot of people who use/used dual piston engines might not agree that the combustion doesn't work. The engines have been in production for a long time so obviously they serve a purpose.

Feliks is well known around the engine forums, funny guy - and again you missed the point, Feliks had his engine (more than one actually) up and running before he asked if anyone wanted to help him develop further after his main engine (which he was running in a rally) blew up and he is not a wealthy man by any stretch. Feliks would have been happy with a few hundred bucks to rebuild his engine not the squillions that 3D graphic'ed you beaut websites seek - that don't have real running engines!!
I saw that, but it only contributed to the fact that it took more than a year to get the job done. A well funded, legitimate company would probably have put the engine on a dyno (and those things aren't cheap) and run it to death to find the weak points.
---

OK now that all that is out of the way. We both know that the little guys have a huge uphill battle trying to get new ideas into use. Even very good ideas get suppressed by larger companies. At the same time there are a lot of crackpot ideas (patented too) that people push to try to rip investors off. So it goes both ways.

The point of my post was,
Expecting an honest corporation to do the same job at the honest part time home inventors cost is not a reasonable comparison. And it's even more expensive for a start up corp to get things going.

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PostPosted: April 22, 2011, 12:26 pm 
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olrowdy_01 wrote:
The point of my post was,
Expecting an honest corporation to do the same job at the honest part time home inventors cost is not a reasonable comparison. And it's even more expensive for a start up corp to get things going.


It doesn't take mega millions to build a proto engine and thats the bottom line. I know some people who have been taken and it's a very sad thing to see.

Heres the latest one I have been made aware of, they have been around seeking investment for the last 7 years minimum.

http://limtechnology.com/index.html


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PostPosted: April 25, 2011, 5:34 pm 
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cheapracer wrote:
olrowdy_01 wrote:
....
Feliks is well known around the engine forums, funny guy - and again you missed the point, Feliks had his engine (more than one actually) up and running before he asked if anyone wanted to help him develop further after his main engine (which he was running in a rally) blew up and he is not a wealthy man by any stretch. Feliks would have been happy with a few hundred bucks to rebuild his engine not the squillions that 3D graphic'ed you beaut websites seek - that don't have real running engines!!



Thanks for the popularization Cheapracer my engine. :D

But I see that I did not write a great deal about him.
  Well, yes: The first prototype of the engine, as did graduate work at the completion of the Technical University of Cracow. It was a practical part, which is making a prototype and part - theoretical description of it all.
To make this prototype did not receive any money from the University. only lent to me Andoria S101 engine and dynamometer type Junkers water.

This very primitive prototype and its construction of the startup and describing it took about one year.
He demonstrated one thing - that this kind of engine running, without any major problems.
Started working at the first five revolutions of the crankshaft...

Image

Now, yes. may, together with the second prototype design implementation and running I did for 3 years. About 1000 days, each day from 9 am to 10 wieczór.Myslałem sometimes it will be a more or less took as much as first prototype. but we were a little wrong, because a completely new type of engine, but sometimes requires a large number of unexpected work. in particular, have already had the concrete strength ( founded about 100 hp ). no, and when it wanted to build too much, " bake a roast on one stone. " This also went beyond the magic circle cylinder of the " valves " was to give a big advantage....
I was like:first start the engine has resulted in only 3 weeks after the first launch attempt. For these three tygonie the engine during the filming of the pacemaker did not draw either a blue cloud !.
If not my very positive experience with the launch of the first prototype, in spite of my determination przypuszcalnie gave me this second prototype. Imagine three weeks filming, 10 major renovations starter, a daily charge batteries overnight... and not a single blue cloud ! Special translucent spark plugs and nothing!
And finally came up. The " combustion chamber " was raging just a whirlwind of sound speed, which resulted in blowing the ionized air between the spark plug electrodes, and this prevented a sparks !

Similar problems were entirely with the selection of the fuel nozzle grained to the carburetor. Original carburetor jets bmw2002 Ti is 135 for cylinder 500 cc. I tried 135 to 240 and the engine worked, but in general did not respond to throttle the volume !!
I thought it was some rezonase are on the exhale, and did his doctorate from the exhaust note...
It was only by chance turned out to be the engine still has far too many relatively gasoline into the air..
The engine would normally not come into work only at the tip... 80 !!
Therefore, if it was not the case, then I'd never of the values ??do not think.
It also shows how much air flow to the carburetor is...
And then I realized that instead of the 100 hp, I got a 250 hp...

But it all went on with the necessary alterations 3 years..

Once I figured that a good mechanic replacing the head gasket in the engine Lotus takes for the job about 1000 pounds. I think this work can be done in one day. So I counted my job for a thousand days. I received a 1000 000 pounds for the same job.....

Of course, but then I did the measurements on the bench, but despite their efforts, after measuring the basic engine torque disappeared. Of course, the bottom of the main piston rod bearing.
Once again, stripped him, invented all the parts, I mentioned an important and all the shells and the engine is ready for further demonstration. dynamometer measurements are meaningless, because you know that this construction of the lower piston that can not stand.
But the engine is smooth and ready for demonstration, how it works without a load. I think what the skilled we will see during the show, enough to earn themselves a very positive view on it.

The main premise which provided a second prototype, is the two cylinder 600 ccm engine shall be designed to withstand 250 HP at 10,000 rpm. And it may be a variable compression ratio in a wide range.

I invite you all to see, as the engine is running, if it could help in something. :D

Regards Andrew :D :D


Last edited by Feliks on May 21, 2011, 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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